[Mark Pearce]

The SGU is advertising winter rates at Prestwick (£280 for a 4ball) and Muirfield (£200 for a 4-ball) from November to the end of March.  The snag is that all four golfers must be members of SGU affiliated clubs.  Can the Scots (and honorary Scots (and my Crail membership entitles me to that title!)) amongst us put a 4ball or two together for that?

[Simon Holt]

I was lucky enough to play Muirfield yesterday and the course is in great condition as always.  They have a lot of work about to start hence the reduced fee for the winter months.  They are putting in a few new tees and moving a fairway so expect a few temp greens and a temp hole at some points.  I was led to believe this is also stated on the Muirfield website but I haven't checked.

Lots of replacement of bunkers all over the course, tees being moved back on 4, 5, 9 (already done), 10 is having a facelift (tee moved, fairway moved 16 metres left to create a slight dog-leg so they can widen the range on the right hand side of that fairway) 14 has a new tee and thats all I can remember off the top of my head.  Pretty hard to remember things that you are told over lunch.....

All RnA recommendations for 2013, they had lots more suggestions but not all of them got the nod from the membership I believe.  The answer to the next question is Hawtree.

PS.  Sean Arble gave a good solid answer to a North Berwick question a while ago so please get in touch for agem there over the winter or next Spring!!

[Mark Pearce]

The SGU website and e-mail explain that Muirfield is cheaper than Prestwick because of the winter work.

NBWL sounds like an ideal winter or early spring round.  Will be in touch.

[Marty Bonnar]

If need be, I might even wear my Kilt commando to prove I'm a true Scotsman!
Happy to join in if dates, times work out. Curse this whole 'having a job' thing. It really interferes with my golf life.
 
FBD.

[Niall C]

Mark,

I would definitely be interested. And I haven't forgotten, I will give you a call.

Niall

[Melvyn Morrow]

Marty

Do I detect a tone of elitism in your boast to ‘Wear a Kilt Commando to prove I’ a true Scotsman’. Gone alas are the days when ‘The Men of The Tartan’ could let is all ‘Swing Low’ for fear of The Health & Safety Brigade.

I suspect the spherical objects will be under the cover of darkness in a tartan set of underwear from M&S, Oh the shock and horror, how the mighty have fallen (sorry, not the image one want to consider while on this subject). The next thing you will be telling me is that you use a cart and are becoming totally reliant on distance aids due to questionable vision or is that peer pressure from overseas friends.

Be careful on the streets of St Andrews many may whisper as you past ‘There goes a once proud and powerful Scotsman, till he picked up the habit of riding – poor man now just a shadow of his former self’.

My understand in that Alex Salmond (First Minister in The Scottish Parliament) is about to table a motion questioning whether cart riders can call themselves Scotsman. For persistent offenders banishment is being considered.   

If you have indeed wandered from the true path, please return before The Salmond excommunicates you from the true faith of ‘The 18 Holes’. Should you repent immediately then the full glory of the game will unfold before your eyes as the gates of The 19th opens  - but remember a Scotsman does not buy the first round - (just follow Niall’s example should get you a good dozen drinks before your round – Mark's English and a solicitor so should be good for many, many rounds    ). Amen

Sorry but the word Commando seems to be a trigger for my poor old brain, I’m feeling OK now,

Hope your guys have a good round 

Melvyn

[Paul_Turner]

I was lucky enough to play Muirfield yesterday and the course is in great condition as always.  They have a lot of work about to start hence the reduced fee for the winter months.  They are putting in a few new tees and moving a fairway so expect a few temp greens and a temp hole at some points.  I was led to believe this is also stated on the Muirfield website but I haven't checked.

Lots of replacement of bunkers all over the course, tees being moved back on 4, 5, 9 (already done), 10 is having a facelift (tee moved, fairway moved 16 metres left to create a slight dog-leg so they can widen the range on the right hand side of that fairway) 14 has a new tee and thats all I can remember off the top of my head.  Pretty hard to remember things that you are told over lunch.....

All RnA recommendations for 2013, they had lots more suggestions but not all of them got the nod from the membership I believe.  The answer to the next question is Hawtree.

PS.  Sean Arble gave a good solid answer to a North Berwick question a while ago so please get in touch for agem there over the winter or next Spring!!

Simon

Thanks for the report,

Do you know if they are rebuilding old bunkers or replacing them?  Filling old ones? Adding new ones?  The course has hardly changed in 80 odd years and now the R&A and Hawtree do this?  I'm pleased the membership reined them in to some degree.

Is the game much different from 2002 when Els won? It seemed tough enough then.

Who pays for changes to the Open rota courses?  The R&A?

[Melvyn Morrow]

As its becoming the norm with The R&A, it’s easier for them to insist on changes to the course than to face the problem head on. No attempt to resolve the underlying problems facing all existing golf course.

We talked about elitism on another topic, but that dubious honour is certainly embraced by the R&A to the detriment of the great courses we have in these islands. Damn them to Hell for not facing the real problems, but then money rules not the protection of the game of golf.

It saddens me more than I care to admit, total betrayal from the Guardians of The Game, sold out for 30 pieces of silver.

Melvyn   

[Paul_Turner]

Melvyn

Well they're experts in changing courses for <0.1% of players (+2 H'cap and better) for about 0.1% of days played on those courses (4 days in about every 4000).

[Mark Pearce]

Paul,

Mostly they're moving a few bunkers closer to greens and narrowing the run ups to greens.  I did see the plan presented to the members and I think by far the most substantial change was the new tee on 9 (now completed).  The members I have spoken to don't think the changes will make much of a difference to the way they play the course.

Given the way bunkers seem to move with time anyway, I'm not sure what's being done at Muirfield is too bad.

[Niall C]

As its becoming the norm with The R&A, it’s easier for them to insist on changes to the course than to face the problem head on. No attempt to resolve the underlying problems facing all existing golf course.

We talked about elitism on another topic, but that dubious honour is certainly embraced by the R&A to the detriment of the great courses we have in these islands. Damn them to Hell for not facing the real problems, but then money rules not the protection of the game of golf.

It saddens me more than I care to admit, total betrayal from the Guardians of The Game, sold out for 30 pieces of silver.

Melvyn   

Melvyn

I don't know Muirfield well enough although I have played it, to judge how the changes as described might turn out. But one thing I would say is the course wasn't considered good when it was first built and has numerous makeovers, both large and small, in the intervening years. That doesn't make Muirfield unique, most of the older championship courses have had the same eg. Troon, Turnberry, Prestwick etc, and often the instigators of that change are the R&A or Committee men who are looking to make the course relevant for the top players. And yet these courses are still considered the best the game has got to offer.

Niall

[Paul_Turner]

Niall

I don't think the R&A can justify the changes by the relevance to the best players argument.  The game really hasn't changed since 2002 and Muirfield was easily challenging enough then.   

And where does it stop?  At each subsequent Open do the R&A insist on yet another expensive redesign.  Or another 10 bunkers moved or added? 

[Niall C]

Paul

My point to Melvyn was that these courses weren't necessarily masterpieces when they were built and that they have all been tampered with on a regular basis and yet they are our best courses. With regards to the work going on now, I'm not sure when the Open is next at Muirfield but perhaps changes are justified since 2002, I would love to know the reasoning behind each of the changes. Anyone know if that info is available ?

Niall

[Melvyn Morrow]

Niall

Actually only a few complained about the course one being Andrew Kirkaldy who made the comment ‘nothing but a damned water meadow’. Yet looking at the facts the land purchased by the club was small and restricted with no quality scenery or for a good size 18 hole course dating from the 1890’s. The course when complete was restricted to just 5,203 yards. In 1896 it was stretched to 6,00yard as the club acquired more land the course expanded but is still on that “Damned Water Meadow”.

My complaint with the R&A is that they have to interfere with the design of the course, Christ, Niall they can’t even look after the interest let alone protect the game of Golf, but they feel qualified to change course design. They do not recognised that there is a problem yet they want courses changed.  They are like alcoholics never accepting that there is a problem. I am also a firm believer that all Tournaments and Championships should be played upon normal course open to Visitors and  Members alike. Championship courses I do not agree with, they give off the wrong image and for me message to the ordinary golfer. But that’s just MHO.

Melvyn     

[Paul_Turner]

Niall

Muirfield has never struck me as a wide course, particularly not as it's set up for the Open.  So do the entranced need to be tightened up?

[Niall C]

Melvyn

The first layout of Muirfield was of its time. Standards in design moved on rapidly over the next couple of decades and it has to be said, Old Tom moved with it as well. For instance I believe Tom stopped having cross over holes in his later designs. Anyway wasn't Muirfield designed by Blyth ?

Paul,

I really don't know Muirfield well enough to argue the toss one way or the other but I would certainly argue the principle of them being allowed to change the course if they think it necessary. One thing you can say about the R&A is at least they employ a professional architect to do the job which is rarely the case with local members clubs.

Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

Can someone please identify the architect?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Niall

Old Tom was the designer -period. Hall Blyth drawings was dated Dec 1891 but Old Tom designed the course in 1890 some 13 months before the drawing. Its the usual disinformation you are falling for. From memory the same team at Muirfield worked in the same way at The New Course. That is the design (routing, green location etc) was Old Tom, Hall Blyth procuced a drawing and a contractor build the courses with Old Tom again overseeaing the installation. If in doubt check the local papers and nationals

Melvyn

[Paul_Turner]

Paul,

I really don't know Muirfield well enough to argue the toss one way or the other but I would certainly argue the principle of them being allowed to change the course if they think it necessary. One thing you can say about the R&A is at least they employ a professional architect to do the job which is rarely the case with local members clubs.

Niall

Niall

I disagree with this, I don't think the R&A should be involved in recommending changes to private courses at all.  I'm not sure when and how the got the perceived authority to do so. 

And the changes to the rota courses have been a real mixed bag.

I'm still not sure who pays for all this redo work?

[Mark Chaplin]

Paul,

ANGC do it to themselves, the USGA do it for the US Open and Amateur, the PGA change Ryder Cup courses and the R&A modify Open courses. Everyone is at it!!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Niall

Cross over holes were mainly used due to the small plots of land available in the early days due mainly to tight budgets. To achieve a 9 or 18 holes, cross overs was sometimes required. Their numbers dramatically fell away when the land was of a sufficient size to accommodate the number of holes the club were after. So yes Old Tom did reduce the cross over holes as golf became more popular and money started accumulating within the clubs coffers.

What was that stirring about Blyth and Muirfield, you know better – Muirfield was designed in late 1890 not 1891 as many seem to believe. The year before Old Toms design Hall Blyth had recommend Old Tom to Edinburgh Council as being the most experienced to design the new Braid Hills course, so one has to wonder who put Old Tom’s name forward in 1890 for Muirfield!

AS you know only too well the local papers are a treasure trove of information.  Take care

Melvyn

PS Niall, I totally agree with Paul re The R&A. The problem today is that the R&A want to put these elite golfers on a pedestal, instead of seeing them perform over our normal courses. It’s the old story when the owner or the Board of Directors descend to inspect one of their factories  a mad dash is made to make the place look good and clean – why what a wasted exercise that fools no one. The message being set out is very wrong, stinks of elitism and contempt for the day to day user/player. If the course has been selected then leave it well alone – the R&A have no right to force change, they do not do it to protect the game and clearly not to protect the course or the holes they want changing. Their only priority these days is to make money, in doing so they have sold their soul to the highest bidder and forsaken the right to govern the Game IHMO.

So everybody is at it but that does not make it right

[Niall C]

Niall

Old Tom was the designer -period. Hall Blyth drawings was dated Dec 1891 but Old Tom designed the course in 1890 some 13 months before the drawing. Its the usual disinformation you are falling for. From memory the same team at Muirfield worked in the same way at The New Course. That is the design (routing, green location etc) was Old Tom, Hall Blyth procuced a drawing and a contractor build the courses with Old Tom again overseeaing the installation. If in doubt check the local papers and nationals

Melvyn

Melvyn

Forgive me, I omitted the smiley face in my original post. I'm in no doubt who did what and if memory serves me right I sent you some newspaper cuttings backing that up.

Niall

[Niall C]

Paul,

I really don't know Muirfield well enough to argue the toss one way or the other but I would certainly argue the principle of them being allowed to change the course if they think it necessary. One thing you can say about the R&A is at least they employ a professional architect to do the job which is rarely the case with local members clubs.

Niall

Niall

I disagree with this, I don't think the R&A should be involved in recommending changes to private courses at all.  I'm not sure when and how the got the perceived authority to do so. 

And the changes to the rota courses have been a real mixed bag.

I'm still not sure who pays for all this redo work?

Paul

I don't think its a case of the R&A having the authority to do it, they do it in conjunction with the host club. My understanding is that the R&A pays for the work and the host club can, and some instances have, decided against proposed changes.


Niall

[Mark Chaplin]

The R&A distributed £6m in 2009 to Golf Federations, scholarships, junior equipment (£1m), greenkeeping, etc, etc. The money comes from the Open.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mark

Sounds like a lot of money but in reality its small compared to the grand total. Rather than applaud I feel it’s rather miserly of them. Sharing crumbs rather than part of the cake springs to mind.

Melvyn

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