[Mike_Young]

Recently we are always hearing of the political elitist, the intellectual elitist and I now comment on the golf elitist....
It's everywhere and often for no reason...and we can begin with architecture and architects...it has invaded all aspects of the game, pros, supts, equipment manufacturers, magazines.......and so much of it is just there...offering nothing...whether it be something like Golf20/20 or some other association that is just there....
It used to be the PGA show was just some salesmen getting together in Fl with the pros over the winter....then they sell the entire event for millions....just a rant but we are out of control...

[Bill_McBride]

Luckily your GCA.com buddies are hardly elitist!   

I suggest you take two aspirins and call Charlie in the morning.

Giants 1, Braves 0, bottom of the 7rh.

[Mike_Young]

Luckily your GCA.com buddies are hardly elitist!   

I suggest you take two aspirins and call Charlie in the morning.

Giants 1, Braves 0, bottom of the 7rh.

I never said they were...
I call elitism the "over the top stuff"  and how far we take it...
For example a few weeks ago I was at a prominent club in San Francisco...the thing that impressed me the most was when the shop said bring your bag over here and we will get you a caddy...yet most of the "wanna be" clubs qould have three guys grabbing your clubs, cleaning your clubs and carrying them to the caddy shack....
Today am at a place a guy stays on the range to clena your clubs everytime you sit one on the ground...come on....

[Bob_Huntley]

Mike,

Golf started out as elitist centuries ago and remains so in most communities. Think Muirfield and Augusta.

Bob

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

Golf started out as elitist centuries ago and remains so in most communities. Think Muirfield and Augusta.

Bob

Exactly...
And then there is every development course that has been built in the last 20 years....wouldn't you say exclusivity has to be earned and not bought?  My point is that in trying to acheive such in every new course we have put the game out of reach for most and made it where it cannot support itself....

[Tim_Cronin]

Elitist and exclusive are different things. Smugness is another thing. The first two are fine, if handled properly. The latter is not. From your descriptions, I think it's the latter you detest, and I agree.
Nothing wrong with striving to be better, to be elite. Some elite things are exclusive (Augusta National), some not (anybody with the scratch can tee it up at Pebble Beach or walk into Tiffany & Co. and buy a bauble).
Exclusivity can be bought the way a round at Pebble Beach can, but it's not necessarily elite. Bushwood CC, say.
To answer the question, no, elitism has not ruined golf. The game is everywhere. But smugness, which flows through the bloodstreams of too many in the game, has done nothing to help the game's image among those who don't know better.

[Mike Sweeney]

Playing golf at Shennecossett this week - http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46112.0/ - it is pretty easy to quote the Tom Paul Big World theory of golf. There is something for everyone out there.

The problem is I was able to sneak in a quick round at Shenny on a Monday between raindrops of a Nor'eastern. Playing it for $25, one pro in the shop, walking in 2 1/2 hours is obviously great but what happens when you tee off on a Saturday at 9:00AM?

Well after 5+ hours of watching guys ride carts on a perfect walking course to stand over their provisional and think about what to hit to save double bogey, the Sweeney elitism kicks in.  Reality is with two kids and a wife doing all sorts of weekend sports and activities, 6 hour weekend rounds are not reality. So do you not play or go elitist?

I always remember that Kavanaugh used to say he played/payed at private clubs to NOT play with golfers or words to that effect of playing with less people on the course. He lives in the middle of nowhere and is an elitist. I live in NYC so I have to be an elitist at times if I want to play and keep my sanity.

Has elitism ruined golf? It is out there in places, but it is avoidable to be sure.

[Kyle Harris]

Luckily your GCA.com buddies are hardly elitist!   

I suggest you take two aspirins and call Charlie in the morning.

Giants 1, Braves 0, bottom of the 7rh.

I never said they were...
I call elitism the "over the top stuff"  and how far we take it...
For example a few weeks ago I was at a prominent club in San Francisco...the thing that impressed me the most was when the shop said bring your bag over here and we will get you a caddy...yet most of the "wanna be" clubs qould have three guys grabbing your clubs, cleaning your clubs and carrying them to the caddy shack....
Today am at a place a guy stays on the range to clena your clubs everytime you sit one on the ground...come on....

Thank you.

It gets worse when it's a muni and I'm paying $60+.

I give these guys an attitude, not because I'm disrespectful but because it will continue until the customer starts voicing displeasure over it. I got my clubs safely from my house to the golf course - the remaining 100 yards should not be too much of a challenge.

[Melvyn Morrow]

YES; YES; YES; YES; YES; YES; AND YES; YES; AND Yes

We need to remember that the popularity of the game is at the grass roots with the poor to average player, the guys who have to put their hand into their pocket to pay for all the tournaments. Mr Average pays by buying the products their hero’s endorse, they pay to watch these same guys, they are the ones who have to foot the bill to pay for everything via the open commercial market.

Yet the Pros' show contempt for their pay masters by spitting, swearing throwing clubs and general poor and at times unacceptable course behaviour. They have passed though the elitism barrier being just too arrogant until they get caught then we see Mr. Humble begging for forgiveness from the people he had previously showed nothing but contempt. This does not just apply to some player but officials as well, who have become out of touch with the common man rather than elitist.

Golf is meant to be one game, played on a golf course, that course should not be define as Championship quality while others are not - one champion on type of course  - that which is played upon by MR Average - if these players are that good then they can play the shorter course with rear skill or is their skill only in being able to hit a long ball, then why would we need to consider them elitist in the first place.

One course for all, deleted championship courses or uprate all to championship standard, lets level the playfield as a start to reclaiming our game of Golf.

Form one that has been dubbed by many as an elitist, bollocks I just believe golf is worthy of saving for the average man.

Melvyn

[Mike_Young]

Tim and Mike S,
Maybe I am describing the situation wrongly....
I don't call places Elitist...I'm calling people elitist...I don't consider a Merion, a Shinnecock, a SFGC elitist....I am calling the places that try to mimic so much of what the former places i mention naturally have.   I have found more pompous attitudes from a golf pro at a posh development with scented towels and 2 million dollars in rock walls around their ponds and polished stone in their cartpaths and lockers that cost 2500 dollars a piece...you never see anything like that at the former places...   I'm talking about the wannabes....for instance the Merions or Shinnecocks might place an walking bridge across a small creek in a simple manner for a couole of thousand bucks yet some new "top 10" in Scottsdale might spend 50,000 for the same situation....in the South we sometimes rate the clubs as "money clip clubs" or "billfold clubs".  The money clip club willoften have more Mercedes, more golf chains, more Rolexes and plenty of wine and big Cigars....the billfold club will have plenty of Crown Vics in the parking lot or old Buick Roadmasters, khaki pants, timex watch etc....in other words..I don't cal clubs elitist if the when the members are not trying to impress each other....it's the wanabes I am calling elitist...and it has permeated much of the industry in all aspects...JMO

[Carl Rogers]

Another perception vs reality issues ....

Is ultra high dollar the same as elitism?

The answer is yes.  Merion, Shinny & SFGC are elistist in economic terms.  Don't confuse execellence with elitism.

The issue some of you raise is that high dollar doesn't always equate to great golf.

Scott Weersing & I are taking a trip to Bandon next February.  For me, is this once in a life time trip, that I never would have indulged myself 20 years ago, make me an elitist?  I would say no.

The perception of elitism in many communities has stifled the growth of the game.

[Steve Lang]

 

For other uses, see Nouveau riche (disambiguation).
Nouveau riche (French for "new rich"), or new money, refers to a person who has acquired considerable wealth within his or her generation.[1] This term is generally to emphasize that the individual was previously part of a lower socioeconomic rank, and that such wealth has provided the means for the acquisition of goods or luxuries that were previously unobtainable. The term can also be used in a derogatory fashion, for the purposes of social class distinction, to describe persons with newfound wealth as vulgar—lacking the experience or finesse to use wealth in the same manner as old money—persons from families who have been wealthy for multiple generations

[Ross Tuddenham]

Does the fact that there is a top 100 list then a top 100 you can actually play list not show there is a hell of a lot of elitism in US golf? 

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Carl R:

I wouldn't call making a trip to Bandon elitism. It may well be costing you a considerable amount of money, but by making the effort to travel such a distance, does it not demonstrate that golf is your purpose for going there. From what I've read here, Bandon is about golf and not about who has the most expensive car in the car park, or who paid USD100,000 to join the club. I'm also sure that you're not going there with the purpose of returning home and name dropping "Bandon" at every opportunity. Please say it ain't so

Bob:

I wouldn't put Muirfield and Augusta in the same category. They both may have a rich tradition, but at least Muirfield allows non-members to play the course.

I think Steve's posting of the definition of Nouveau riche sums it up perfectly.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

For other uses, see Nouveau riche (disambiguation).
Nouveau riche (French for "new rich"), or new money, refers to a person who has acquired considerable wealth within his or her generation.[1] This term is generally to emphasize that the individual was previously part of a lower socioeconomic rank, and that such wealth has provided the means for the acquisition of goods or luxuries that were previously unobtainable. The term can also be used in a derogatory fashion, for the purposes of social class distinction, to describe persons with newfound wealth as vulgar—lacking the experience or finesse to use wealth in the same manner as old money—persons from families who have been wealthy for multiple generations

This is a perfect example from the home of golf!

http://news.scotsman.com/dall-estate/Laird39s-plan-to-build-.6366880.jp

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

You are just playing the wrong places.  Try Z Boaz in Ft. Worth, TX sometime instead of Colonial.

All those scented towels will go away when no one will pay for them, the waterfalls have been turned off in many places, etc.  In general, the story of golf in America has been from more elitist to less elitist over time.  There are exceptions and periods of exception (generally related to economic booms) but overall, the vast majority of courses out there try to focus on providing golf at the lowest possible cost, because like air fares or anything else, in the end, lowest possible cost (or highest possible value to be more accurate) is where its at.

[Sam Morrow]

Mike,

You are just playing the wrong places.  Try Z Boaz in Ft. Worth, TX sometime instead of Colonial.

All those scented towels will go away when no one will pay for them, the waterfalls have been turned off in many places, etc.  In general, the story of golf in America has been from more elitist to less elitist over time.  There are exceptions and periods of exception (generally related to economic booms) but overall, the vast majority of courses out there try to focus on providing golf at the lowest possible cost, because like air fares or anything else, in the end, lowest possible cost (or highest possible value to be more accurate) is where its at.

Z Boaz? That's upscale daily fee, is it Rockwood that's on Jacksboro Highway? They don't call it the bloodiest 5 miles in Texas for nothing and I once saw guys chipping off for a rock. That place is hardcore.

[Bill_McBride]

Mike,

You are just playing the wrong places.  Try Z Boaz in Ft. Worth, TX sometime instead of Colonial.

All those scented towels will go away when no one will pay for them, the waterfalls have been turned off in many places, etc.  In general, the story of golf in America has been from more elitist to less elitist over time.  There are exceptions and periods of exception (generally related to economic booms) but overall, the vast majority of courses out there try to focus on providing golf at the lowest possible cost, because like air fares or anything else, in the end, lowest possible cost (or highest possible value to be more accurate) is where its at.

Z Boaz? That's upscale daily fee, is it Rockwood that's on Jacksboro Highway? They don't call it the bloodiest 5 miles in Texas for nothing and I once saw guys chipping off for a rock. That place is hardcore.

Sam, it doesn't get much more low key and comfortable than your club, really enjoyed our round there!

[Adam Lawrence]

For other uses, see Nouveau riche (disambiguation).
Nouveau riche (French for "new rich"), or new money, refers to a person who has acquired considerable wealth within his or her generation.[1] This term is generally to emphasize that the individual was previously part of a lower socioeconomic rank, and that such wealth has provided the means for the acquisition of goods or luxuries that were previously unobtainable. The term can also be used in a derogatory fashion, for the purposes of social class distinction, to describe persons with newfound wealth as vulgar—lacking the experience or finesse to use wealth in the same manner as old money—persons from families who have been wealthy for multiple generations

This is a perfect example from the home of golf!

http://news.scotsman.com/dall-estate/Laird39s-plan-to-build-.6366880.jp

Donal - it would be, if there were a cat's chance in hell of it ever happening!

[Mark Chaplin]

Bob Huntley is perfectly correct golf started off as an elitist game for the upper classes, it has never more accessible than it is now.

Today I played at Littlestone (est. 1888) as with Deal there is a board recognising the sacrifice of members during WW1, as with Deal the members who died were all officers. At Deal every member of staff killed in the Great War was a private or NCO.

Pay and play is relatively new as are most resort courses.

Elitism does exist at some clubs but it is chipped away every year.

[Mike_Young]

Guys,
I'm certainly not condemning wealth, capitalism or anything like that....let me try to say it again....in search of elitism many golf developments have gone over the top and have helped create an atmosphere that is not indusive to reasonable/sustainable golf play....I don't see the top private clubs as elitiist , I see them moreso as people that can pay for something they want and do so...
I see th elitism mainly in some of the resorts and high end second/third home developments....and the scary thing there is that many members of older, local country clubs either buy homes in these areas or visit them on business or pleasure and come back to their old home clubs and start a trend of implementing what they saw at these old clubs....oh well...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mark

I wish I could agree with you on your comment “Elitism does exist at some clubs but it is chipped away every year”

I feel that is not quite right, while elitism is no longer powered by the Country Set it is still rather strongly maintained by those in the financial and associated markets. In fact I may even go as far as to say it worse than ever due to the attitudes of Steve’s Nouveau Riche.

I am also concerned about the governing bodies attitude and feel that they are more elitist than ever. At least in the early days they may have had a reason for this Upstairs/Downstairs attitude.

If you do not believe me then look to their faces when one of our American friends arrives in one of their colourful outfits to play golf. Their expression is that of a ‘bulldog chewing a wasp’, clearly they are not amused, yet they allow the Professionals to spit, swear and some to throw club when surrounded by spectators both live and on the small screen. Give me a colourful well behaved individual any day over to a spoil brat who clearly cares little for others let alone golf.

Money talks, it’s the modern basis for elitism.

Melvyn

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

Maybe you're confusing elitism with stupidity.

You could be right...plus it is easier for me to type stupiddity
Just remember this...
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

An easier word to get right is "dum".

[Bill_McBride]

I thought Mike was talking about wiener shavers.   

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