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Carl Rogers

Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites? New
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2010, 07:42:25 PM »
This topic relative to Riverfront has baffled me a bit ...  For a very flattish site the course is not flat.

Having lived in the Tidewater Virginia are going on 22 years now, the course somehat reflects the observed regional landscape in that the closer you get to the wetlands or body water, the more movement of topography you are likely to see.

This topic among many others is why I would like to see others on the East Coast play a round there ... to see the range of reactions.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 08:58:45 PM by Carl Rogers »

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2010, 10:13:39 AM »
I hated the over treedultra narrow old courses where call you could do on any given day way hit 4 to 7 fairways and the others required you punch out of the trees with a 2 iron and then sand wedge into the green. I never thought that was golf.

In fact, you were more rewarded with a wild shot into another fairway than being just a bit off line.

I'd 10 times prefer an open shot off an awkward uneven lie than that 2 iron shot.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2010, 12:29:01 PM »
Hanse's Craighead course at Crail is on a mostly flat site, with a little interest added by a couple of archeologically interesting stone walls which are well used several times.  I don't know for sure but I suspect the construction budget was not generous and it seems to me that, good though the routing is, using the walls and the cliff top well, the of money was spent on the greens, rather than shaping the fairways.  Indeed, to my eye there's very lttle evidence of much shaping away from the bunkering. 
The budget was very limited.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2010, 12:48:10 PM »
Hanse's Craighead course at Crail is on a mostly flat site, with a little interest added by a couple of archeologically interesting stone walls which are well used several times.  I don't know for sure but I suspect the construction budget was not generous and it seems to me that, good though the routing is, using the walls and the cliff top well, the of money was spent on the greens, rather than shaping the fairways.  Indeed, to my eye there's very lttle evidence of much shaping away from the bunkering. 
The budget was very limited.
Thanks for confirming.  The club certainly got value for money, then.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2010, 01:04:05 PM »
Hanse's Craighead course at Crail is on a mostly flat site, with a little interest added by a couple of archeologically interesting stone walls which are well used several times.  I don't know for sure but I suspect the construction budget was not generous and it seems to me that, good though the routing is, using the walls and the cliff top well, the of money was spent on the greens, rather than shaping the fairways.  Indeed, to my eye there's very lttle evidence of much shaping away from the bunkering. 
The budget was very limited.
Thanks for confirming.  The club certainly got value for money, then.

This was partly my point when I started the thread a few months ago.

I don't think we always need to shape internal contours in to fairways. It is not always about "rumple" and it is very hard to pull this off and make it look entirely natural. Quite often the most natural looking thing is to leave well alone and put the effort in at the green site...

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2010, 01:40:19 PM »
This was partly my point when I started the thread a few months ago.

I don't think we always need to shape internal contours in to fairways. It is not always about "rumple" and it is very hard to pull this off and make it look entirely natural. Quite often the most natural looking thing is to leave well alone and put the effort in at the green site...
I'd certainly agree with that, though some intelligent fairway bunkering also has a role to play.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2010, 02:17:38 PM »
I've always thought at Craighead, that you could draw a circle round the bunkers and the greens and the tees and you could acurately show where the earth had been shifted. Nothing out of those circles looks like it has been touched but inside clearly has. In terms of intergrating into the landscape and looking natural a lot of the greens and nearly all of the fairway bunkering looks as though it has just been plonked down on top of the landscape. That doesn't make it a bad course but can't help thinking that a bit of judicious planting of whins or other low level shrubs might have helped break up the gradual sweep of an open site and then the shaping might not have looked so obvious.

Niall

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2010, 04:11:14 PM »
This was partly my point when I started the thread a few months ago.

I don't think we always need to shape internal contours in to fairways. It is not always about "rumple" and it is very hard to pull this off and make it look entirely natural. Quite often the most natural looking thing is to leave well alone and put the effort in at the green site...
I'd certainly agree with that, though some intelligent fairway bunkering also has a role to play.
I think if the lands good to start with then it does not need fixing but in the real world, new golf courses are no longer great golfscapes to begin with, we get given farms and mountain sides, deserts and landfill sites, so if you are going to make it with bulldozers you might as well get some internal shaping. Even on flattish farmland, just a few cuts and pushes with a D6 can make a whole world of difference, its not really that expensive you can do a lot in a week for £2500.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

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