Do too many architects "over-shape" flat sites?

[Carl Rogers]

This topic relative to Riverfront has baffled me a bit ...  For a very flattish site the course is not flat.

Having lived in the Tidewater Virginia are going on 22 years now, the course somehat reflects the observed regional landscape in that the closer you get to the wetlands or body water, the more movement of topography you are likely to see.

This topic among many others is why I would like to see others on the East Coast play a round there ... to see the range of reactions.

[cary lichtenstein]

I hated the over treedultra narrow old courses where call you could do on any given day way hit 4 to 7 fairways and the others required you punch out of the trees with a 2 iron and then sand wedge into the green. I never thought that was golf.

In fact, you were more rewarded with a wild shot into another fairway than being just a bit off line.

I'd 10 times prefer an open shot off an awkward uneven lie than that 2 iron shot.

[Brian Phillips]

Hanse's Craighead course at Crail is on a mostly flat site, with a little interest added by a couple of archeologically interesting stone walls which are well used several times.  I don't know for sure but I suspect the construction budget was not generous and it seems to me that, good though the routing is, using the walls and the cliff top well, the of money was spent on the greens, rather than shaping the fairways.  Indeed, to my eye there's very lttle evidence of much shaping away from the bunkering. 

The budget was very limited.

[Mark Pearce]

Hanse's Craighead course at Crail is on a mostly flat site, with a little interest added by a couple of archeologically interesting stone walls which are well used several times.  I don't know for sure but I suspect the construction budget was not generous and it seems to me that, good though the routing is, using the walls and the cliff top well, the of money was spent on the greens, rather than shaping the fairways.  Indeed, to my eye there's very lttle evidence of much shaping away from the bunkering. 

The budget was very limited.

Thanks for confirming.  The club certainly got value for money, then.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hanse's Craighead course at Crail is on a mostly flat site, with a little interest added by a couple of archeologically interesting stone walls which are well used several times.  I don't know for sure but I suspect the construction budget was not generous and it seems to me that, good though the routing is, using the walls and the cliff top well, the of money was spent on the greens, rather than shaping the fairways.  Indeed, to my eye there's very lttle evidence of much shaping away from the bunkering. 

The budget was very limited.

Thanks for confirming.  The club certainly got value for money, then.

This was partly my point when I started the thread a few months ago.

I don't think we always need to shape internal contours in to fairways. It is not always about "rumple" and it is very hard to pull this off and make it look entirely natural. Quite often the most natural looking thing is to leave well alone and put the effort in at the green site...

[Mark Pearce]

This was partly my point when I started the thread a few months ago.

I don't think we always need to shape internal contours in to fairways. It is not always about "rumple" and it is very hard to pull this off and make it look entirely natural. Quite often the most natural looking thing is to leave well alone and put the effort in at the green site...

I'd certainly agree with that, though some intelligent fairway bunkering also has a role to play.

[Niall C]

I've always thought at Craighead, that you could draw a circle round the bunkers and the greens and the tees and you could acurately show where the earth had been shifted. Nothing out of those circles looks like it has been touched but inside clearly has. In terms of intergrating into the landscape and looking natural a lot of the greens and nearly all of the fairway bunkering looks as though it has just been plonked down on top of the landscape. That doesn't make it a bad course but can't help thinking that a bit of judicious planting of whins or other low level shrubs might have helped break up the gradual sweep of an open site and then the shaping might not have looked so obvious.

Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

This was partly my point when I started the thread a few months ago.

I don't think we always need to shape internal contours in to fairways. It is not always about "rumple" and it is very hard to pull this off and make it look entirely natural. Quite often the most natural looking thing is to leave well alone and put the effort in at the green site...

I'd certainly agree with that, though some intelligent fairway bunkering also has a role to play.

I think if the lands good to start with then it does not need fixing but in the real world, new golf courses are no longer great golfscapes to begin with, we get given farms and mountain sides, deserts and landfill sites, so if you are going to make it with bulldozers you might as well get some internal shaping. Even on flattish farmland, just a few cuts and pushes with a D6 can make a whole world of difference, its not really that expensive you can do a lot in a week for £2500.