[Dan Herrmann]

Hawtree and Son - tell me more.

Their company's URL is http://www.hawtree.co.uk/default.aspx

[Carl Johnson]

I'd never heard of the firm until I started play at the Mt. Mitchell Golf Course in North Carolina about 12 years ago.  F.W. ("Fred") Hawtree, the second generation of Hawtrees in the firm) laid out that course, supposedly the only one he did in the US.  The bar/grill in the Mt. Mitchell clubhouse is called "Hawtree's Pub."  My golf book collection includes the title, "The Golf Course: Planning, Design, Construction & Maintenance," by F.W. Hawtree (copyright 1983).

How did Fred get this U.S. job at Mt. Mitchell?  I would bet following story is 75% accurate:  The father of the original and present owner of the Mt. Mitchell golf course (Jim Floyd) was a contractor from North Carolina, Raleigh and also Charlotte, at the least, who specialized in golf course construction.  He also wrote for golf magazines.  In the 1960s or early 1970s, I would guess, Floyd Sr. on one occasion went to England to interview and write articles about verious English architects for US golf publications.  He met and became friends with Fred Hawtree.  In the early 1970s the Floyd family bought about 600 acres in the North Carolina mountains with the idea of building a golf course on it.  Knowing and liking Fred Hawtree, Floyd Sr. hired him to design the course (it is what the British would call a "holiday course," I believe).  As I recall, Jim Floyd told me that Fred made three trips to North Carolina in connection with his architect responsibilities.  My assumption is that Floyd Sr.'s company actually built the course.

[Larry Gavrich]

Dan, a few years ago I played Reems Creek, a Hawtree & Son layout near Asheville.  I wrote a short review of the course and community, with a couple of photos:  http://www.golfcommunityreviews.com/reviews/going-blind-unseen-hazards-on-reems-creek-course-but-community-casts-sharp-eye-on-middle-market.html.  The many blind shots made it tough on a first timer but it was enjoyable nevertheless.

Hawtree and Son - tell me more.

Their company's URL is http://www.hawtree.co.uk/default.aspx

[Carl Johnson]

Dan, a few years ago I played Reems Creek, a Hawtree & Son layout near Asheville.  I wrote a short review of the course and community, with a couple of photos:  http://www.golfcommunityreviews.com/reviews/going-blind-unseen-hazards-on-reems-creek-course-but-community-casts-sharp-eye-on-middle-market.html.  The many blind shots made it tough on a first timer but it was enjoyable nevertheless.

Hawtree and Son - tell me more.

Their company's URL is http://www.hawtree.co.uk/default.aspx

A year or so ago the Reems Creek course was sold by the original owners.  Reems Creek is now affiliated with Warrior Custom Golf, which I understand is an equipment company.  I don't know if Warrior or someone related to them owns the course now.  However, I've been told that the new owners have cut back expenses and that the course has suffered as a result.  This is second hand, so it may not be true.  I can't even recall my source.  I know the former owner fairly well, so next time I see him I'll try to remember to ask who he sold the course to. 

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I've played two Hawtree courses to the best of my knowledge; maybe more. I wasn't aware of the Hawtree name at the time.

Blainroe (Wicklow), Deer Park (Dublin) and Lisburn (just outside Belfast) are all Fred Hawtree designs in Ireland.

Deer Park (1973) is a pay-and-play course on Howth hill and is quite good; it would undoubtably be better if it were private and some money was spent on it. I was impressed with Lisburn (1970s?) when I played it about 20 years ago. I'm sure it has matured into a better course. I haven't played Balinroe (1976?), but I saw it in the early 1980s and it looked quite nice for a young course.

Martin Hawtree has been involved with Portmarnock, Royal Dublin, Lahinch, Cork, and Dooks (or was it Ceann Sibeal?) in recent years.

[Jamie Barber]

Didn't they do some remodelling at Birkdale ahead of the Open (2008?)? As I recall the 17th green was not well received

[Dan Herrmann]

Are they any good?

[Jeremy Broom]

In Canada, they recently did the work at Toronto and a course just outside London ontario, Tarandowah.

[Brad Tufts]

Didn't they originate out of course construction with Colt/Alison/Morrison?

That might not be it, but I think there is a link between the first Hawtree and one or more of the Golden Age faves.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Didn't they originate out of course construction with Colt/Alison/Morrison?

That might not be it, but I think there is a link between the first Hawtree and one or more of the Golden Age faves.

Fred G. Hawtree & J.H.Taylor

This thread fuels the sceptics that believe that this discussion forum only concentrates on one type of architecture (minimalist, classic); one business model (design / build) and one area (USA)...

Hawtree Ltd are the highest profile architects in Europe...

[Sean_A]

Someone told me the three generations of Hawtrees created about the same number of courses Colt did.  This isn't meant to slap at the Hawtrees, but more to put Colt's career into perspective.  I think the Hawtrees have done maybe 155 new courses the past 100 years - no mean feat considering the depression, two world wars and recovery from war.  The vast majority of these courses are small time affairs, probably not unlike Stratford on Avon GC; solid and affordable golf often over less than admirable ground.  However, the Hawtrees biggest contribution is more in re-design, often during tight times.  These guys have been involved in a whos who of golf clubs and are still widely sought out.  FG was also very heavily involved in greenkeeping (I think he started out as a greenkeeper) and he built Addington Court as a public golf course he owned - quite unusual in those days.  

These days, I find it difficult to tell the difference between Hawtree, Steel, Pennink and Cotton.  I think their design visuals are quite similar and essentially an extension of Colt's visuals.  This recent Trump project near Aberdeen is a huge opportunity as a new build design.  I am not sure the Hawtrees have had a bigger or more prestiguous project than this.  I wonder if we have to look toward Dooks and Royal Dublin for some clues as to what we can expect?

Ciao

[Niall C]

Fred Hawtree did indeed start out as a greenkeeper and then reached prominence from memory by being one of the founders of the Greenkeepers Association (again this is from memory so can't quite recall the name of the organisation then) and I believe may have been the first president. He then went into business with JH Taylor and as Ally said got equal billing. That would be early to mid 20's I think, and offered everything from design to construction, to the all in service. Judging by the golfing mags of the period they were as prominent as anyone else. Colt may have had a head start on Fred but I suspect that the reason why Colt appears to have done more courses is that everyone remembers when its Colt whereas the fact that a course is a Hawtree & JH Taylor tends to get forgotten about, even by the club.

I have some of their adverts that appeared in Golf Illustrated however no idea how to post on here so if there's any volunteers out there let me know.

Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall

I don't think Hawtree was as prominent as Colt, Fowler or Simpson.  We can see that from the design commissions and this is despite a big time player as a partner who was very much involved in the architectural debates of the day.  However, Braid and Vadron didn't get mcuh of the cream of the crop commissions either.  Colt cleaned their clocks and by some margin.  I believe JH was on the "wrong" side of the coin in terms of his ideas on architecture (much like the other well known pros were), however, I wonder if FG turned him around when they partnered in the early 20s because I can see little evidence of a penal nature in JT's work (ironically, the same is true of Braid and Vardon).  It also could be a bit of the "penal" school being somewhat of a sliding term as I think guys like Tillie and Flynn were far more penal in their efforts to create championship courses.  Indeed, I really believe the modern concept of penal golf was American invented.     

In any case, M Hawtree must be sitting on absolutely tons of great info not only about his family, but British architecture in general.  His father wrote a ton and I believe Martin hopes to write some stuff in the future. 

Ciao 

[Paul_Turner]

Fred Hawtree did indeed start out as a greenkeeper and then reached prominence from memory by being one of the founders of the Greenkeepers Association (again this is from memory so can't quite recall the name of the organisation then) and I believe may have been the first president. He then went into business with JH Taylor and as Ally said got equal billing. That would be early to mid 20's I think, and offered everything from design to construction, to the all in service. Judging by the golfing mags of the period they were as prominent as anyone else. Colt may have had a head start on Fred but I suspect that the reason why Colt appears to have done more courses is that everyone remembers when its Colt whereas the fact that a course is a Hawtree & JH Taylor tends to get forgotten about, even by the club.

I have some of their adverts that appeared in Golf Illustrated however no idea how to post on here so if there's any volunteers out there let me know.

Niall

I can post if you like.

There was some connection with James Braid too, with the firm of Hawtree and Taylor constructing to Braid's design.

Martin Hawtree has done a lot of high profile redesign work recently.  For better or worse, a lot of historic architecture has been lost.

The latest being Sonning, yet another Harry Colt course that is being redone by Martin Hawtree...although for some reason Hawtree's website credits J H Taylor with the design of Sonning who from as far as I can tell redesigned a few holes after some land was lost from across the road.

This lack of attention to historic detail does imply that the history of the course and vintage golf architecture isn't all that important to Martin Hawtree.   It was the same for Lahinch, Toronto, Dublin, De Pan, Melbourne, Belvoir Park, Sunningdale even Birkdale and others.  I wonder what he has in store for Muirfield?

I don't understand why  he appears uninterested in restoring old features?

Anyway at least 1 Sonning hole that has been around for 97 years is being dug up by his firm.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

As Sean mentioned, the Hawtree firm has done a huge amount of redesign. Because of this, it's difficult to know what they have done at times, as the firm is seldom mentioned by the golf clubs they worked for.

I haven't looked into this much, but FG designed Westport (Co. Mayo) in 1973. He also redesigned one of my favourite parkland courses, Malone (Belfast) in the mid-60s. It's a marvelous course and well worth playing. I believe FG built the 3rd nine at Portmarnock and possibly a 4th nine. I recall he also did some work at the Island. I'm sure there are a few more courses in Ireland that the firm worked on.

 

[Jon Earl]

Fred Hawtree did indeed start out as a greenkeeper and then reached prominence from memory by being one of the founders of the Greenkeepers Association (again this is from memory so can't quite recall the name of the organisation then) and I believe may have been the first president. He then went into business with JH Taylor and as Ally said got equal billing. That would be early to mid 20's I think, and offered everything from design to construction, to the all in service. Judging by the golfing mags of the period they were as prominent as anyone else. Colt may have had a head start on Fred but I suspect that the reason why Colt appears to have done more courses is that everyone remembers when its Colt whereas the fact that a course is a Hawtree & JH Taylor tends to get forgotten about, even by the club.

I have some of their adverts that appeared in Golf Illustrated however no idea how to post on here so if there's any volunteers out there let me know.

Niall

I can post if you like.

There was some connection with James Braid too, with the firm of Hawtree and Taylor constructing to Braid's design.

Martin Hawtree has done a lot of high profile redesign work recently.  For better or worse, a lot of historic architecture has been lost.

The latest being Sonning, yet another Harry Colt course that is being redone by Martin Hawtree...although for some reason Hawtree's website credits J H Taylor with the design of Sonning who from as far as I can tell redesigned a few holes after some land was lost from across the road.

This lack of attention to historic detail does imply that the history of the course and vintage golf architecture isn't all that important to Martin Hawtree.   It was the same for Lahinch, Toronto, Dublin, De Pan, Melbourne, Belvoir Park, Sunningdale even Birkdale and others.  I wonder what he has in store for Muirfield?

I don't understand why  he appears uninterested in restoring old features?

Anyway at least 1 Sonning hole that has been around for 97 years is being dug up by his firm.

I'm a member at Croham Hurst (www.chgc.co.uk). To quote the Hawtree website:

'His first golf course was built at Croham Hurst, in Surrey and is still there unchanged. He had worked here with James Braid and went on to work with him building courses at Ipswich and Musselbrugh.'

It'a fun course to play but who was the major influence? There are plenty of Braid traits e.g. wide fairways, front to back sloping greens, drop-offs and the odd (in the words of Tony Muldoon) 'quartered'green. I wouldn't begin to know what the characteristics of a F.G Hawtree course are. Maybe the Club members who are producing the Centenary book for next year will be able to shed some light on who did what.

On the modern side, Bearwood Lakes is a very good course.

[Carl Johnson]

Copied From the Trump thread (what will this do for the Hawtree legacy?):

Trump flies in just hours after revealing he may run for president
Billionaire back on the Great Dunes of Scotland with ambitions of taking on Obama
By Ryan Crighton
Published: 07/10/2010Donald Trump was back on the Great Dunes of Scotland last night – hours after stunning America by announcing he may run for president.

The billionaire touched down at Aberdeen Airport in his private jet to begin a three-day visit to his £750million golf resort under construction at the Menie Estate.

Before he left New York, however, he declared his interest in taking on Barack Obama in the 2012 race for the White House.

He told the P&J last night he genuinely felt he was the man to fix America’s domestic problems – and his family was ready to run his business empire if he stands.

“A lot of people have been asking me to run for president,” Mr Trump said. “I am having a lot of fun doing what I am doing and today I am in Scotland having fun.

“But America needs help. I haven’t made a decision, but a lot of people want me to do it. I think I could do it – but it is a big commitment and something I must think about.

“It would mean not being able to run the business like normal. I would need to have others involved, like my children, who are very capable, so that wouldn’t be a problem.”

There is uncertainty in the US whether Mr Trump would stand for the Republicans or as an independent, but last night he was in no doubt.

“Some people have been asking me for years (to run for president),” he said. “I am a Republican and, if I decide to do it, it will be for them.”

Mr Trump walked through the back nine holes at his would-be championship course near Balmedie yesterday, making the adjustments he hopes will help create the world’s greatest course.

Today, he will walk the front nine with his team before a series of meetings about the clubhouse design and renovations at the site.
He said: “I am here to walk the course with (designer) Martin Hawtree. We have just walked the back nine and much work has been done.

“The 18 holes have all been started. The back nine is absolutely incredible and it is largely shaped.

“We have now sited the clubhouse. We are designing it right now and it is going to be really beautiful.”

Robert Gordon University in Aberdeen will present Mr Trump with an honorary doctorate of business administration tomorrow. The award of the degree has led to protests and angered the university’s former principal, but Mr Trump was focusing on the positives yesterday.

He said: “I am very honoured by the degree from a great university. It is a great recognition of what we are doing for Scotland, so I am really taking it as a compliment for my whole team.”

Campaigners handed a petition to the university yesterday asking for the honour to be retracted. RGU says it is to recognise Mr Trump’s “business acumen” and commitment to the north-east.

Aberdeenshire Council had backed Mr Trump’s masterplan to build two golf courses, a £250million hotel, 950 holiday homes and 500 houses. The local authority is currently considering further plans for a maintenance unit that would include workers’ accommodation and a mechanics’ workshop.

The championship course will open in 2012 and will be one of the longest in Europe, at more than 7,400 yards off the championship tees.

[Padraig Dooley]

Niall

I can post if you like.

There was some connection with James Braid too, with the firm of Hawtree and Taylor constructing to Braid's design.

Martin Hawtree has done a lot of high profile redesign work recently.  For better or worse, a lot of historic architecture has been lost.

The latest being Sonning, yet another Harry Colt course that is being redone by Martin Hawtree...although for some reason Hawtree's website credits J H Taylor with the design of Sonning who from as far as I can tell redesigned a few holes after some land was lost from across the road.

This lack of attention to historic detail does imply that the history of the course and vintage golf architecture isn't all that important to Martin Hawtree.   It was the same for Lahinch, Toronto, Dublin, De Pan, Melbourne, Belvoir Park, Sunningdale even Birkdale and others.  I wonder what he has in store for Muirfield?

I don't understand why  he appears uninterested in restoring old features?

Anyway at least 1 Sonning hole that has been around for 97 years is being dug up by his firm.

Paul, I don't believe Martin showed any lack of attention to historic detail when it came to working at Lahinch. The greens were changed in the 30's and are now much closer to MacKenzie's greens thanks to Martin. He did restore old features in Lahinch.

He also did enhance Royal Dublin. His work there doesn't contravene with the history of the course.

Your comment about the 97 year old hole at Sonning seems to suggest, without giving more information, that because the hole is 97 years old it shouldn't be changed.

We are working with Hawtree Ltd. at Cork, mainly Marc Westenborg but Martin as well and we are very happy with them.

[Mark Pearce]

I believe Hawtree were responsible for the relatively recent work at Goswick.  What they did there has enhanced an already good course.

weren't they responsible for the changes to Alwoodley's 18th?

[Paul_Turner]

Padraig

I don't believe the work at Lahinch was based on much historic research.  Maybe there wasn't much info available?  I think the redo was mostly guess work, although at the time it was billed as a proper "restoration" back to Mackenzie's originals;  I remember because we discussed it here about 8-9 years ago.   And other more recent "restoration" projects by M Hawtree suggest that proper restoration isn't his M.O.

Re Dublin: I don't understand "contravene with the history of the course"?  At least they could have kept the great old 11th green

I do think longevity of a golf hole should matter and I guess I'm just fed up with the fiddling and redesign of golf holes (mostly Colt's) that have been perfectly good holes for a long time.  And a lot of the redo work has actually harmed the courses in my opinion:  see Belvoir Park's 7th green for a good example of a botched redesigned green that has since been abandoned.

[Padraig Dooley]

Padraig

Re Dublin: I don't understand "contravene with the history of the course"?  At least they could have kept the great old 11th green

What I meant was his redesign doesn't clash with the old style of the course.

The old 11th was on the unique side but it really wasn't that great a loss.

Martin spent a lot of time at Lahinch so I'd imagine a lot of research went into the project, if the redo was mostly guess work, it was good guess work in my opinion.

I don't know Belvoir so I can't comment on it.

 

[Sean_A]

Paul

You continually chase after Hawtree.  Eventually you may figure out that Hawtree works with clubs and to blame an archie (which for you seems habitually to be Hawtree) for all the evils of design changes isn't really productive or accurate....unless YOU know the brief(s) Hawtree works from. 

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Padraig

This is an old thread on how we discussed Lahinch at the time.  Really disagree on the 11th.  Hawtree's greens are all very similar...all raised.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,4161.0/

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

Architects put crazy ideas in club member's heads all the time.  I've seen it happen over and over i.e. turning Toronto into something resembling Sunningdale.

[Sean_A]

Sean

Architects put crazy ideas in club member's heads all the time.  I've seen it happen over and over i.e. turning Toronto into something resembling Sunningdale.

Paul

All the same, I think your comments may be better served with some actual knowledge of briefs.  I don't believe many archies on many of these resto/reno projects are given nearly the free hand you infer.   Personally, I think club members would alter courses even if there was no such thing as gca.  Its what clubs do.  I don't agree with it, most especially when talking of H&S, but I do know H&S is used as an excuse to do all sorts of stupid stuff.  Its a modern mantra of archies - just read what the archies on this site write - its quite clear saftey is a high priority if not the highest priority. 

Ciao

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