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Adam Clayman

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The Lesson(s) of Sleepy Hollow
« on: September 30, 2010, 08:01:23 AM »
On my recent travels I was blessed to play Sleepy Hollow in New York city. This C.B, Macdonald course is a delight to play thanks to the ongoing tree removal program and green expansions. While it has taken a few years, the decision to go with Gil Hanse and George Bahto has proven to be the lesson to learn. Pick the right people to do your master plan, and work.

Any course thinking about improving on it's future, would do well to try and visit Sleepy Hollow and see how the views have opened up the course, exposed site specific ground, and, improved turf quality,. They have made for one of the highest quality playing experiences.

For those who are not familiar, the course was originally all CBM. When the opportunity came to sell off land that comprised a few holes, that basically paid for the whole, the course brought in A.W.Tillinghast to create new holes. The decision to stick with CBM's look, on the Tillie holes was also a wise choice, imo.

There's a wonderful pictorial from Cigar Aficionado, dating back a few years, showing 3 or 4 iterations of "The Short". It's a great way to see side by side comparisons of how a geometric style accentuates the natural beauty of a site.

Much thanks goes to Jim Gold and Corey Miller for arranging a memorable day, golfing along the Hudson. I was also fortunate to meet two gentleman who were instrumental in bringing about these changes for the benefit of the whole of membership. (George and Mike)

Congrats guys, you have a real gem on your hands.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Ron Csigo

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Re: The Lesson(s) of Sleepy Hollow
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2010, 08:17:12 AM »
Hi Adam,

I enjoyed reading your comments about Sleepy Hollow.  Sounds like you're having a wonderful trip to the Northeast.  Of the other CBM courses that you've played/seen, how would you compare Sleepy Hollow to other CBM courses?  Does Sleepy Hollow remind you of Yale?  Sleepy Hollow closely resembles (which other CBM course)?
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Playing and Admiring the Great Golf Courses of the World.

Adam Clayman

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Re: The Lesson(s) of Sleepy Hollow
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2010, 09:20:45 AM »
Ron, Sorry I did not contact you, as my trip was tight and once things fell into place, there was no other time. I did see you had plans for the same time period, so I felt ok. I'm still saving Yale for you, or Colin Sheehan's November tournament. (Just not this year)

This was my first CBM. (unless u count Merion  :o  ) So I can't answer your question.

On my viewing of the second hole, once reaching the top of the hill, I was floored by the feeling of entering another kingdom. Similarly, to crossing the hedge/road at CPC and other such spiritual places.

That is why the tree clearing is/was so important to this site specifically. (and likely many others)

 Yesterday at Lancaster, the same could be said when reaching their second. But, with a little pruning, one wouldn't need to wait for the second green, and could see through, and down to the river, that comprises that early section of the property. As well as later in the round when some teeing grounds and greens get closer to that section.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike Cirba

Re: The Lesson(s) of Sleepy Hollow
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2010, 09:46:48 AM »
Adam,

The changes at sleepy hollow are tremendous and I'm glad you got the chance to see them.

I take it you didn't get to cobbs today in the deluge?
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mike_malone

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Re: The Lesson(s) of Sleepy Hollow
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2010, 11:20:21 AM »
 Adam,

   Why do you start such "sugary" topics ?  Why don't you tell us why you think Flynn is a flunky?
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AKA Mayday

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lesson(s) of Sleepy Hollow
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2010, 11:24:25 AM »
 Adam,

     Some courses have trees and that's the way it is. So, how should they deal with them and not remove them?
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AKA Mayday

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Lesson(s) of Sleepy Hollow
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2010, 10:33:01 AM »
Mayday,
 I'll take your suggestion of being less "sugary", but, I won't stoop to being indecent. (unless provoked and warranted)

Mike C.
 No, we bagged the creek. It was a shame because I think you guys are doing something special for public golf. It's not hard to see why people at private clubs take a deep interest and make heroic efforts, like that at Sleepy Hollow, to make their course the best it can be, but, it's the publics that seem to take the back seat, and allow hacks to destroy their specialness. My hope is that you, or someone, documents everything you will be doing at Cobb's Creek, with extensive before and after  photos.

Mike Mayday. I'm not a tree hater, and in many instances they provide needed strategy and shade. But, it's been clear that an over zealous devotion to trees can choke a course, affecting it's air flow and it's long views. As with all things GCA, it's site and case specific. Thinning out, or raising the low the branches is one way to keep trees and still allow for views, recovery and air flow.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Adam Clayman

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Re: The Lesson(s) of Sleepy Hollow
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2010, 02:08:34 PM »
I'm sorry I forgot to mention one of the catalysts in Sleepy's awakening.
He's been a member of this forum for a very long time, and a member at Sleepy for over a decade. Plus, is basically a really nice guy.
 
Kudos to Corey Miller for asking a lot of the right questions.

I've taken the following photo from Ran's review. It dates back to 2007 and from what I can tell, the changes made since then, have been significant. In other words, the pictures posted in Ran's review does not show how much openness exists today.

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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

RSLivingston_III

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Re: The Lesson(s) of Sleepy Hollow
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2010, 05:45:09 PM »
A couple questions for those in the know...

Wasn't the original course a 9-holer by CBM as a private course for the family? And didn't AWT come in and add the second nine after the family gave up the estate?
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"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
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Adam Clayman

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Re: The Lesson(s) of Sleepy Hollow
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2010, 07:39:23 PM »
Ralph. I don't think that's correct. They currently have 27 holes. There are at least 3 original CBM holes on that 3rd nine.
I know Tillie came in and built the holes that go out into the trees toward the "unfortunate" 10th (RTJ's contribution). But I believe there were 18 to begin with. 
Hopefully, like you said, someone in the know will chime in.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

RSLivingston_III

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Re: The Lesson(s) of Sleepy Hollow
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2010, 08:02:04 PM »
I am probably remembering it incorrectly.
It has been almost ten years since I was last there and thought I remembered that being the story.
I should probably get off my a$$ and look it up in a certain CBM experts book thats lounging on my bookshelf.
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"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

George_Bahto

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Re: The Lesson(s) of Sleepy Hollow New
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2010, 08:24:34 PM »
come on Livingston old boy - read it !!   ;D

a short chronology of events (the full version is complex)

Macdonald got hired by Rockefeller to built a course in the Macdonald fashion

Macdonald and Rockefeller did not get along at all

Macdonald and Raynor built a fairly mundane course (perhaps to get out of Dodge quicly)

Local architect (and a good one) Thomas Winton was hired to revise the course

Tillie comes in and reroutes some of the course (post Winton)

In between, the club sold off most of 5 holes for housing - so 5 holes lost ther - three holes now on the lower course and the remainder on the main course

from what we can determine neither Tillie nor Macdonald added substantial strategies to their versions of the course (or holes they built) - Winton actually was more creative than both of those famous men.

Lots of gray areas but I think we have it right

this takes you past the Tillinghast work - about 1933 ...... beyond that I have little interest ......   ;D
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 09:54:10 AM by George_Bahto »
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Gerry B

Re: The Lesson(s) of Sleepy Hollow
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2010, 02:08:40 AM »
finaly got there this year - my #1 pleasant surprise of the year
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