[Tim Martin]

They should move their slow hand/club game indoors and leave the outdoor courses to (the apparently few) people who still like to play golf.

Wouldn't moving the game to virtual golf courses -- where all variables can be controlled -- be the perfect answer to all of the "fairness" fans? It really isn't fair that the early groups face weather that changes during the day and later groups don't deal with the same conditions. With virtual golf you can make every face the exact same weather.

And for all you fans of GCA, wouldn't designing virtual golf courses be much easier? No longer any need to get dirty, fall into bogs, or have to spend months on site. You could design your course form anywhere in the world. And to do something like lengthen the course no need to buy real estate or screw up the routing. You can add length with the push of a button.

Cheers,
Dan King

Instead of dirt and poison we have rather chosen to fill our hives with honey and wax; thus furnishing mankind with the two noblest of things, which are sweetness and light.
 --Jonathan Swift

Dan- Are you employing sarcasm or do you have a contract with EA Sports?

[JNC Lyon]

It could be the Ocean Course, that forced players to let all emotions hang out and battle the elements.  Or it could be The Country Club, which was the original site of American golf's triumph over European invaders.  

I must be just dense, but can you please explain to me how The Ocean Course forced players to let all emotions hang out, but Celtic Manor didn't? Did you even watch today or yesterday? If that is not all emotions hanging out, then I must have been watching a wrong program. Exactly what GCA feature(s) lets "players to let all emotions hang out"?

And if we go by your The Country Club example, does that mean no new golf course should ever even dream about hosting a major event because they do not have the history? How are we going to make new history if we don't play on new courses? How is revisiting the same old venue always better? Belfry has plenty of memorable Ryder Cup moments, but still GCA leave a lot to be desired. Does it get a pass because of its history?

Richard, I'm saying history can be part of it.  The Ocean Course is an excellent course and a great Ryder Cup venue, but it had no prior history.  History itself does not a Ryder Cup venue make.  However, the history of American golf at The Country Club (along with some great GCA, I might add) made the event that much more special.  Ben Crenshaw's book talks a lot about his reverence for the Country Club and why he thought it was so special in '99.  Just like Augusta makes the Masters more special and St. Andrews makes the Open more special, both because of their architecture and their histories, a great venue can make a Ryder Cup that much better.

As for emotions, I would argue that my first point (players battling the elements) played a part in inducing my second (letting emotions fly).  The Ocean Course was a raw test of golf that brought out the best and worst in guys.  The emotions there ran higher than ever too.  Seve's allegations of cheating towards Azinger and Beck, Calc's collapse and hyperventilation on the beach, Langer's grimace, and Stockton's victory swim in the Atlantic Ocean were all examples of how that Ryder Cup went emotionally above and beyond.

This isn't to say that drama cannot occur on a less than great course.  However, I think a truly great venue produces truly great golf.

[Jason Walker]

JNC-

Put down Shackelford's "The Future of Golf" for a minute.  It's really not as dire as it seems.

I'm trying to find your logic but I'm really lost.   This Ryder Cup produced about as much exciting golf, great play, emotions, and drama as any recent golf event that I can recall.  Yet, it showcased all that is wrong with modern golf?   Wow.

Did it inspire great play?  You bet.  Embody the spirit of the game?  Yup.  Did it create and inspire competition?  Sure would seem so.  Preserve the spirit of golf?  Every competitor said the game of golf was the true winner this weekend.

Please help me out.  I like classic golf courses as much as the next guy but I'm struggling....

[Dan King]

Tim Martin writes:
Dan- Are you employing sarcasm or do you have a contract with EA Sports?

No contract, but I am job hunting -- if anyone there is interested in hiring me.

There are people who think any changes toward fairness in golf is a good thing. You will not truly get fairness on a golf course because there are far too many things in nature that are beyond the control of the organizers. The way to handle that is to move the game away form the messy out-of -doors and into places that aren't messy and where climates can be controlled. It worked for the NFL and I fail to see why it can't work for the PGA Tour.

Perhaps this will mean all these "fairness" police will follow their heroes indoors and leave the outdoor golf courses to those that like the inconsistencies inherent in the outdoor game.

Cheers,
Dan King

So many people preach equity in golf. Nothing is so foreign to the truth. Does any human being receive what he conceives as equity in his life? He has got to take the bitter with the sweet, and as he forges through all the intricacies and inequalities which life presents, he proves his metal. In golf the cardinal rules are arbitrary and not founded on eternal justice. Equity has nothing to do with the game itself. If founded on eternal justice the game would be deadly dull to watch and play.
 --Charles Blair Macdonald

[JNC Lyon]

JNC-

Put down Shackelford's "The Future of Golf" for a minute.  It's really not as dire as it seems.

I'm trying to find your logic but I'm really lost.   This Ryder Cup produced about as much exciting golf, great play, emotions, and drama as any recent golf event that I can recall.  Yet, it showcased all that is wrong with modern golf?   Wow.

Did it inspire great play?  You bet.  Embody the spirit of the game?  Yup.  Did it create and inspire competition?  Sure would seem so.  Preserve the spirit of golf?  Every competitor said the game of golf was the true winner this weekend.

Please help me out.  I like classic golf courses as much as the next guy but I'm struggling....

Jason,

I was focused less on the results of match and more on how the game was being played.  When I looked at how the game was being played this weekend I did not like what I saw: soggy conditions, heavy use of water hazards and long rough, LCP, 100% dollar-driven event, play slower than molasses.  A lot of this can be chalked up to the venue.

The drama might have been there for the average TV viewer, but from what I saw on Saturday, it was like watching paint dry.  I did not get this feeling from other Ryder Cups.  The way the matches were conducted made it worse for me.  I'm not saying those 91 and 99 Cups were not perfect.  However, I see a lot more emotions from those events than I do from this one.

[Michael Blake]

Dan King,

O/T, but how long does it take you to find a golf quote relevant for every one of your posts?  I like it.

[Jason Walker]

JNC-

Not sure you were aware of this, but it sure rained pretty hard in Wales the last few days.  As Dan King likes to point out, we play golf outdoors so the conditions are bound to be a bit soggy.  The fact the course held out is remarkable, but not surprising as the folks that built it have a decent idea of the weather patterns out that way.  

As I mentioned on another post, the only true 'hazards' for the top professionals are water and heavy rough.   If it goes in the lake they can't hit it, and rough at least presents a challenge. That's pretty much it.  LCP? Who cares, that horse is beaten.  99.999999999% of the people who play golf on this planet don't care.  100% dollar driven?  AWESOME!  I love it.  As someone that regularly attends major championships and Ryder Cups, that's my favorite part!  Go spectate some time.  If they weren't dollar driven they wouldn't exist.  And slow play?  Relax, it's the pros.   Believe me, it's been the same for every Ryder Cup I've watched or seen up close.  This year was not different.  1999 was played at glacial speed.  And the emotions this year were argulably more raw than 1999 or 1991 as well....check out the US press conference following today's play.  Mahan made Calcavecchia look like a rock.

If you can separate championship golf from the golf you and I play, you will enjoy both elements much more--trust me.  

Again, I'm just lost on your argument.

[Ross Tuddenham]

Jason Walker,

you ask if it inspired great play.  I am not sure it did, certainly it inspired what looked like great play.  For those top pros was it really such a great performance to fire at a pin and know the ball would stop dead?

Would you not agree that there is a nagging doubt the players were not really forced to think about the shots they were being asked to play?

Although as pointed out the drama was there and for any golf fan it would have been hard not to get sucked into the excitement of the finish.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC-

Not sure you were aware of this, but it sure rained pretty hard in Wales the last few days.  As Dan King likes to point out, we play golf outdoors so the conditions are bound to be a bit soggy.  The fact the course held out is remarkable, but not surprising as the folks that built it have a decent idea of the weather patterns out that way.

As I said before, this problem would have been solved if the Ryder Cup were played at a proper UK venue, i. e. A LINKS.
 
As I mentioned on another post, the only true 'hazards' for the top professionals are water and heavy rough.   If it goes in the lake they can't hit it, and rough at least presents a challenge.

These hazards are limit the most interesting and thrilling part of the game, the recovery shot.  That's a bad thing.

That's pretty much it.  LCP? Who cares, that horse is beaten.  99.999999999% of the people who play golf on this planet don't care.  100% dollar driven?  AWESOME!  I love it.  As someone that regularly attends major championships and Ryder Cups, that's my favorite part!  Go spectate some time.  If they weren't dollar driven they wouldn't exist.

None of the current majors exist or were originally started because of money.  If I had to choose watching the PGA Championship at a mediocre venue vs. the Walker Cup at a great venue, I'd pick the one that makes less money, the Walker Cup.

 And slow play?  Relax, it's the pros.   Believe me, it's been the same for every Ryder Cup I've watched or seen up close.  
The pros set the example on pace of play with endless pre-shot routines.  Thus, we have the slow play epidemic of today's golf.

This year was not different.  1999 was played at glacial speed.  And the emotions this year were argulably more raw than 1999 or 1991 as well....check out the US press conference following today's play.  Mahan made Calcavecchia look like a rock.

If you can separate championship golf from the golf you and I play, you will enjoy both elements much more--trust me.

Part of what makes golf great is that we play by the same rules at every level.  This isn't like Little League where they put a moratorium on stealing until you are 12.  Golf is great because it has had the same rules at every level.  Why does this suddenly have to change now?

Again, I'm just lost on your argument.

[Jason Walker]

Ross-
My question was rhetorical in nature in response to JNC's post, but the play the last four days was as inspired as I can recall.  Did the weather and conditions alter some decisions?  No question, but no different than other events where the elements played a role.

It was GREAT play whether they knew they could shoot at the flag, or whether they knew they needed to land the ball 8 yards short to account for firm greens.  For the most part it doesn't matter to these guys.  You still have to execute the shot under IMMENSE pressure and for every great shot there was another wedge to 40 feet because the competitor couldn't handle the pressure.  Strategic 'thinking' is essentially meaningless for these guys, whatever course they're on.

[Dan King]

Michael Blake asks:
O/T, but how long does it take you to find a golf quote relevant for every one of your posts?  I like it.

A common misconception. In reality I have a few dozen quotes banging around in my head. I only respond to posts where what I say matches one of the quotes I have stuck in my brain.

I started adding quotes back in the R.S.G. days. I added the quotes to get more people to read my oh-so-valuable opinions. I started collecting quotes and did that for a while. Now I have a few thousand different golf quotes. I've grown bored with golf quotes and started adding other quotes I find.

Cheers,
Dan King

I might repeat to myself, slowly and soothingly, a list of quotations beautiful from minds profound; if I can remember any of the damn things.
 --Dorothy Parker

 

[Wade Schueneman]

Isn't golf always about the course (at least in some substantial part)?  Sure the players are battling with each other, but the course majorly affects the the tactics.


Richard,

I put extra emphasis on the choice of course when it comes to match play, because that tends to offer the opportunity to unshackle the players and allow them to engage the course in a riskier manner than would be acceptable in stroke play.  For example, Jack Nicklaus used to say that to hit it right of the Principle's Nose on 16 at the TOC was strictly the amateur play, but in a four ball match I bet he tries that shot (much to our delight).

[Garland Bayley]

JNC-

Not sure you were aware of this, but it sure rained pretty hard in Wales the last few days.  As Dan King likes to point out, we play golf outdoors so the conditions are bound to be a bit soggy.  The fact the course held out is remarkable, but not surprising as the folks that built it have a decent idea of the weather patterns out that way.  
...

"The course held out"
Did you not notice that play was held up, delayed, postponed, etc.??
Did you not notice that every golf news media of any sort worth it's salt reported, that while they couldn't play at Celtic Manor, play was not stopped at nearby links courses where the courses actually did hold up.

This was the worst Ryder Cup ever. Why? Because a golf competition is a drama that plays out live. There is only one performance of that drama, and because the course did not hold up, that performance happened without the audience that had been scheduled for it on Sunday morning. Instead it played out while while a significant portion of the constituents of one of the parties to that drama was sleeping. Or, even if some of those constituents got up early to watch the drama play out, couldn't watch, because the medium was online through PGA.com, which was never intended to carry such a load, and so failed to deliver.

When performances on Broadway fail by that much in attaining their audience, they are canceled.
The Ryder Cup of 2010, will go down as one of the most forgettable, as most won't even have seen it to even been in the position of forgetting it.

Ryder Cup 2010. The unseen wonder in Wales. Forget about it!

[Mark Pearce]

Garland,

I think blaming the course for the fact that the sun sets earlier in the UK than it does in the USA takes the biscuit for absurd complaints that have been made on this absurd thread.

Jason,

What do you know about weather patterns in South Wales?  Or are you basing your comment on what happened this weekend?  As I understand it, it's been quite wet in the eastern USA this past few days.  Would, for instance, Bethpage have been playable this weekend?  It didn't do awfully well in June last year.   If this Ryder Cup had been played in mid-September when it was initially scheduled, the weather would have been fine.  This weekend has seen exceptional rain fall in Wales just as elsewehere in the world.  The organisers got unlucky with the weather but would have had a better chance if Mr Finchem hadn't interfered with the schedule in a desperate attempt to generate some interest in his tour after the end of the PGA Championship.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

You can never be 100% sure you won't get rained off at any time of the year, but playing the Ryder Cup in GB&I in September is less risky than playing it on October. It shouldn't have been held back until October.

I just checked the UK Met office web page and the weather station closest to Celtic Manor with data is Cardiff Bute Park. Doing a quick calculation, it turns out that the average rainfall in October since 1977 is 127 mm (for 9 of those years it was over 150 mm). Compare that with one of the windiest and wettest places in Ireland, Belmullet (close to Carne) in the west of Ireland which has a mean of 134 mm since 1961. I'm no expert on statistics, and am aware that there is a difference between mean and average (but i can't for the life of me figure it out ), but those numbers tell you that that part of Wales is pretty damp. The Dublin area has a mean of only 70 mm of rainfall in October, and the concensus in Ireland is that the Irish Open shouldn't be played outside the months of June-August. This is one of the reasons why the Irish Open was moved this year; nobody wanted a repeat of Baltray 2009 or the K-Club 2006.

Some have said that the east of Scotland manages to hold the Dunhill every year, but Leuchars (nearest weather station) has an average of 77 mm (for 2 of those years it was over 150 mm) over the same time period as quoted for Cardiff Bute Park. As for the World Matchplay at Wentworth, I'm pretty sure the rainfall there is well below 70 mm. I once heard that East Anglia gets the same amount of rainfall as Israel. Can anybody confirm that

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

I think blaming the course for the fact that the sun sets earlier in the UK than it does in the USA takes the biscuit for absurd complaints that have been made on this absurd thread.

...

Mark,

My complaint had nothing to do with "the fact that the sun sets earlier in the UK than it does in the USA". So the biscuit is back on you.

[Mark Pearce]

Garland,

I think blaming the course for the fact that the sun sets earlier in the UK than it does in the USA takes the biscuit for absurd complaints that have been made on this absurd thread.

...

Mark,

My complaint had nothing to do with "the fact that the sun sets earlier in the UK than it does in the USA". So the biscuit is back on you.

Garland,

I don't understand.  Do you sleep different hours on Sunday nights?

[Garland Bayley]

Whereas standing water at Celtic Manor caused play to be suspended multiple times. And whereas, these suspensions forced rescheduling of the final matches. And whereas, at nearby links courses play continued on. Be it therefore resolved that Celtic Manor is the worst Ryder Cup course in recent memory.

Whereas, a golf competition such as the Ryder Cup is a one time performance of a drama. And whereas, drama is performed for an audience. And whereas, due to the inadequate course for this Ryder Cup this drama had a small fraction of the audience that should have been in attendance. Be it therefore resolved that this was the worst Ryder Cup in recent memory.

Comprende pardner?

[Richard Choi]

So, by following that logic, The US Open at Bethpage was the worst one ever and any other event where rain causes delay is automatic "worst ever".

Does that mean that next they have a Ryder Cup delayed due to weather, it automatically becomes worst ever? But then what about this one? Do they tie?

Again, following that logic, should we not play all golf tournaments in Sahara or at least Death Valley so that we never have to deal with rain?

[Garland Bayley]

...
Again, following that logic, should we not play all golf tournaments in Sahara or at least Death Valley so that we never have to deal with rain?

Richard,

If they play it at Chambers Bay in whatever rain that may occur, I'm happy.

[Garland Bayley]

Seriously Richard,

When greed causes bad decisions, you start getting worst evers.

E.g., the mortgage back security debacle of recent occurrence.

[Richard Choi]

Garland, the day after Old MacDonald opening, the rains were so heavy it was unplayable and this was during June. And if it can happen there, it can happen anywhere.

It is quite unfair to blame courses or events for nature's random occurances.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, the day after Old MacDonald opening, the rains were so heavy it was unplayable and this was during June. And if it can happen there, it can happen anywhere.

It is quite unfair to blame courses or events for nature's random occurances.

Exactly how long was it unplayable?

[Tim Bert]

Garland, the day after Old MacDonald opening, the rains were so heavy it was unplayable and this was during June. And if it can happen there, it can happen anywhere.

It is quite unfair to blame courses or events for nature's random occurances.

Unplayable for some perhaps.  I played 36 at Pacific Dunes that morning and afternoon.  Soaked through my bad rain gear and ruined a digital camera in the process but the course was playable.  No standing water on any of the greens and only minimal puddling on the fairways.  I was still putting from more than 25 yards off the green.  In fact, I'm pretty sure that not only did I play 36 holes but that I played the ball down as well.  Perhaps Mr. Mayhugh can help me recall if there was any plugging or lifting, cleaning, and replacing in the morning but I don't think so.  I played the afternoon round alone, and I'm pretty sure I played it as it lied.

That being said, I disagree with just about everything Garland has said on this thread.

[Richard Choi]

Unplayable for some...

All I saw was puddles on the putting green next to my room and rain was only getting heavier. That was enough for me to start driving back home. I am sure a few brave souls including you ventured out, but if there was any type of pro tournament going on, it probably would have been weather delayed, LPC or not.

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