[Ryan Farrow]

Agree, Disagree?

[Carl Rogers]

Though thoroughly agruementative, the narrow fairways with ultra high rough to frustrate the long and crooked combined with slower green speeds have probably lead to an American dis-orientation and thus the loss.

Please disagree.

Congrats Euros!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Agree, Disagree?

Agree 100%.

[Art_Schaupeter]

Agree.  The Ryder Cup is about the competition...the spirit of competition.  Even the fact that the home side can choose and tweak the course setup makes it about the competition.  While certain courses might provide for more interesting shots, decisions or options, it is still the competition that makes the viewing most compelling.

[Terry Lavin]

Of course not.  But then again, neither is the US Open or the Open championship.  It's about the competition and the drama that builds and the storylines that develop.  Winning at one course or another might make it more special for a player (or a squad in a team event), but we have so many examples of terrific golf at mundane courses in major championships that this question is the equivalent of a tap-in.

[Garland Bayley]

When the course is the sole cause for having a Monday finish, then it becomes about the course.

[Terry Lavin]

I would disagree in the sense that a story line can be made more compelling by the history of a place, particularly if the event had been held at that place previously. There were a few compelling venues that hosted Ryder Cup events which would make the Cup even more entertaining if it revisted. The competition and matches certainly become the main story as it comes near the conclusion, but I would think the place could add some drama leading up to the event and in the early stages, but at some point that story gives way to the action.

While this is undeniably correct, there are more important factors that the planners of a Ryder Cup look for.  Mainly, they need amphitheater like areas for crowds to sit and watch the action at the final five holes, because there is precious little golf to watch in a Ryder Cup.  They also need space for huge Jumbotron television sets, because it's incredibly hard to see any golf in a Ryder Cup unless you sit at the same spot for hours and watch the same shot over and over and over again.  Then, they need room for corporate tents, where thousands of people who traveled thousands of miles to watch golf live instead watch golf on big televisions while noshing and cocktailing.  The golf course, unfortunately, is usually secondary.  Sure, I'd love to see the Ryder Cup played at Pennard or Royal St. David's, but I rather doubt that they would be able or willing to chop up their facility for an event of this magnitude.

[Richard Choi]

One can only dream "This is the Worst Ryder Cup Ever (because of the golf course)" thread will never appear again on these pages.

But that is probably asking too much...

You can play the Ryder Cup on a local muni and still be exciting. I don't think the courses matter as much in matchplay settings.

[Scott Warren]

I'd even argue professional golf - period - isn't about the course.

Perhaps the most gripping major of the past decade was The US Open at Torrey Pines, a course most on this site dismiss.

Professional sport is about the gladiators and the storylines they create. It's nice to see great courses, but it's well down the list of things that make a tournament.

[Bill Seitz]

Agree.  The Ryder Cup is about the competition...the spirit of competition.  Even the fact that the home side can choose and tweak the course setup makes it about the competition.  While certain courses might provide for more interesting shots, decisions or options, it is still the competition that makes the viewing most compelling.

I agree with this.  And when you get down to it, even the ability to set up course conditions to favor certain players is somewhat overblown.  On any given day, for golfers at this level, the most crooked driver on tour can hit every fairway, and the most accurate driver can hit it all over the yard.  The best a captain can hope to do is set up the course to make his players comfortable.  There is so little separating those 24 guys that it really makes for compelling viewing. 

From an architecture standpoint, we can complain about the 15th hole to the extent that, despite the claims, it really doesn't present two options.  Did even one player go for the fairway on the left side?  But from a fan's perspective, I thought that hole made for great TV. 

So to answer the OP's question, I'd agree and disagree.  The Ryder isn't necessarily about the course, but the course is definitely part of the storyline.  However, I would say that the Ryder Cup doesn't have to be played on a great course to produce a great event with plenty of drama. 

[George Pazin]

I'd even argue professional golf - period - isn't about the course.

Perhaps the most gripping major of the past decade was The US Open at Torrey Pines, a course most on this site dismiss.

Professional sport is about the gladiators and the storylines they create. It's nice to see great courses, but it's well down the list of things that make a tournament.

Gotta disagree. I personally preferred Shinney 04 and Sandwich in 03 - without Tiger's knee problems, Torrey probably would have been a snooze.

In the end, it is of course about the players, but the venue can add or subtract hugely.

[Adam Lawrence]

Yeah but George that's like saying that Moby Dick would have been lousy without the whale. Tiger winning on one leg was a pretty compelling story!

[RJ_Daley]

I'd have to agree that the course is secondary to the competition and who is in the competition, including the personalities of who are Captains.  You can't hold it in a non-mediable market, or without strong local golf populations.  The course has to be tough enough, and idealy marginally quirky here and there, with ability for crowd management.  But, I think it comes down to the personalities competing, their selection of playing to earn spots then captiain picks. 

I'm going to be curious how Medinah comes through this.  It should stack up if the players are well matched up and teams are solid.

[Sean_A]

I disagree.  We have just seen how a course can effect course of events.  It doesn't in the least mean either team gains an advantage because of it, but the course does play an important role.  I would also agree with Kelly in that the history of a course (and thus usually better fan knowledge of said course) can be a boon and enhance the crowd enjoyment.   

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

It certainly part of competition and very major part as is the conditions. From the Tees to each first contact with the ground the course plays a very major part, just like the Greens and the pin positions. Of course its the course, what about the poor weather conditions at The Open over the last few years, its was the course that could be counted upon, it was the only key reilable factor in the whole event.

Its always the course that tests the quality of the players, no matter how good he/she is they are nothing without the course so it is very much about the course.

Melvyn

[George Pazin]

Yeah but George that's like saying that Moby Dick would have been lousy without the whale. Tiger winning on one leg was a pretty compelling story!

That's kinda my point, the story was Tiger's leg, not the venue. In many other Opens, the venue is at least part of the story. I guess to a small degree Torrey played a role in that it was the course Tiger most wanted to win an Open on, so maybe he wouldn't have played if it were somewhere else, but that's a bit of a stretch to me.

Would the famed Hogan's 1 iron photo be as special if it were a 7 iron into some random hole? I don't know, maybe it would, but I think Merion plays a part.

[Jud_T]

I agree that the course is secondary to the drama and competition.  But the real issue for most here is rather the knock-on effects these courses have on the rest of the industry and GCA after the event's over and the tents and bleachers have been dismantled. 

[Phil McDade]

I agree that the course is secondary to the drama and competition.  But the real issue for most here is rather the knock-on effects these courses have on the rest of the industry and GCA after the event's over and the tents and bleachers have been dismantled. 

Jud:

Do you really believe that? Does the industry really follow the (very few) courses that receive prominent exposure? I think you can narrow that argument down to one course -- Augusta National -- and the emphasis on making courses look pretty.

I am struck, in visiting some golf course websites, how many Florida courses (heck, a lot of courses everywhere) refer to some mound-lined, treeless hole with a few deep bunkers as "Scottish-style" links. Um, no...

[Jud_T]

Uh, yes...

[Phil McDade]

Examples, please... (I gave mine already...)

[Ross Tuddenham]

Maybe it is about the course but just not in the ways we would like it to be.  If the Ryder cup is all about the money, which it is, they need to ensure the audience and TV ratings are as high as possible.  The Ryder cup achieves these large audiences, and hence large revenue, because it attracts viewers who do not watch golf at any other time.  I know many friends and colleagues who have commented on the Ryder Cup who never normally care for golf.

Would these "casual" fans enjoy watching the players battle against a course, for example a classic links, playing shots that the connoisseurs of the game would enjoy or do they enjoy the target golf we have seen all this week.  I would think that the time of year for holding the event will be criticised by the masses but not the course.  Seeing balls fired at pin from 200 yards and stopping within two feet will have been great viewing for many.

If this is the type of golf the organisers want then the choice of course is important.

[Jud_T]

Phil,

I'm just saying broadly that these tournament courses serve their purpose for the events, then have a negative knock-on effect.  It's mostly all the stuff we jabber about incessantly on here, length, overwatered, target golf.  But imagine a 13 year old Welsh kid who just picked up the game with his buddies at the local muni.  His dad doesn't belong to a club or play golf.  One of his schoolmates' dad was volunteering at the tournament and at the last minute gained access to a couple of passes for the boys.  Now they see this thrilling event at the 2010 course featuring the best players in the world.  They go back to the local muni and fantasize about draining the winning putt at the famous Championship course down the road and maybe even getting to play that very course one day.  etc., etc., etc....    

[JNC Lyon]

I disagree, and I'm surprised that more people on this board do not care about the venues for tournaments.

The Masters would not be the same without Augusta National.  Why? Because the COURSE facilitates drama, tests players' physical and mental fortitude, and creates a great mix of challenge and luck.  The Masters would not be as legendary if it were played a course without Amen Corner, without the two gambling par fives at 13 and 15, and without the infamous greens to test the golfer every step of the way.  The course creates the drama through great architecture that tests a player in the mental realm as well as the physical realm.  Great courses also inspire great play and great fun.

This challenge should be no different for the Ryder Cup.  The Ryder Cup should be played on a course that embodies the spirit of the game and inspires great play.  Different courses can do this very well.  It could be the Ocean Course, that forced players to let all emotions hang out and battle the elements.  Or it could be The Country Club, which was the original site of American golf's triumph over European invaders.  Ultimately, the course creates and inspires the competition, and it preserves the spirit of golf.  Refusing to play major tournaments like the Ryder Cup at great golf courses means refusing to provide the best possible test and atmosphere for the game's greatest championships.  That, quite simply, is inexcusable.

[Dan King]

They should move their slow hand/club game indoors and leave the outdoor courses to (the apparently few) people who still like to play golf.

Wouldn't moving the game to virtual golf courses -- where all variables can be controlled -- be the perfect answer to all of the "fairness" fans? It really isn't fair that the early groups face weather that changes during the day and later groups don't deal with the same conditions. With virtual golf you can make every face the exact same weather.

And for all you fans of GCA, wouldn't designing virtual golf courses be much easier? No longer any need to get dirty, fall into bogs, or have to spend months on site. You could design your course form anywhere in the world. And to do something like lengthen the course no need to buy real estate or screw up the routing. You can add length with the push of a button.

Cheers,
Dan King

Instead of dirt and poison we have rather chosen to fill our hives with honey and wax; thus furnishing mankind with the two noblest of things, which are sweetness and light.
 --Jonathan Swift

[Richard Choi]

It could be the Ocean Course, that forced players to let all emotions hang out and battle the elements.  Or it could be The Country Club, which was the original site of American golf's triumph over European invaders.  

I must be just dense, but can you please explain to me how The Ocean Course forced players to let all emotions hang out, but Celtic Manor didn't? Did you even watch today or yesterday? If that is not all emotions hanging out, then I must have been watching a wrong program. Exactly what GCA feature(s) lets "players to let all emotions hang out"?

And if we go by your The Country Club example, does that mean no new golf course should ever even dream about hosting a major event because they do not have the history? How are we going to make new history if we don't play on new courses? How is revisiting the same old venue always better? Belfry has plenty of memorable Ryder Cup moments, but still GCA leave a lot to be desired. Does it get a pass because of its history?

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