News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« on: October 04, 2010, 10:48:53 AM »
I've asked this question before, but considering the threads currently discussing the distance of a course I thought I would ask it again...

When a course is designed, which are the "true" set of tees? Is a course designed at 6800, for example, then the back and forward tees are factored in at appropriate distances - or - is the course designed from the back tees with all forward tees being added after?

If each set of tees truly stands on its own, isn't the architect really designing multiple courses overlaying each other? The ladies I have played with are constantly complaining about the placement of their tees. They feel most ladies tees are an afterthought and just not well thought out.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Brent Hutto

Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2010, 10:57:04 AM »
It depends on the type of course, Mike.

A course which offers considerable driving challenge and perhaps has enforced or at least encouraged specific layup zones is properly conceived as multiple courses overlayed. An example I'd put forth is the Ocean Course at Kiawah.

But a course where there is ample width and few or no cross hazards, which has it primary challenge at the greens, could well be thought of as a single course in which selection of the tees to play mostly assures that various players must approach those green complexes with something other than wedge after wedge (or layup after layup in the case of a short hitter playing too far back). Some of the favorite courses here in the Treehouse are more along these lines, pick an example to taste...

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2010, 11:03:30 AM »
Brent, I understand your answer, but what I am really asking is this:

When an architect designs a hole does he originally envision it from one tee, then adds the others... and, if that is the case, which tee is the original?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2010, 11:10:42 AM »
Michael,

I hate to say it but I use the back tees, for a couple reasons. 

In the old days, we used to use the middle tees, but then, there were only three sets of tees!  Also, as we designed more housing courses, we found that if we left room behind the mythical center point of the middle tee, the land planners snatched the land from us while we weren't looking.  As a result, the doglegs and centerlines started being designed from the back tees, as a matter of self defense.

Secondly, as sort of hinted in the other thread I started at the same time, the ideas of good players still dominate the perception of the course. 

Thirdly, it seems easy enough to adjust the middle tees off the back as it is to adjust the back off the middle.  That said, the tendency to have really poorly designed forward tees is testament to the fact that maybe we really don't adjust all that well. 

And, there is that old debate as to whether the tees and LZ areas should be adjusted only for the tee shot, or whether they should be adjusted for a combination of shots.  If the 6300 yard player hits about 90% of the 6800 yard player, should hole length be 90% for him, or 81% to make it play similar (90 x 90)?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2010, 11:14:31 AM »
Michael, a good and interesting question. But before I could post my ramblings, Jeff provided a good and informed answer. One thing I know for sure: it is rare that any architect's 'true' course is designed from the forward/senior/ladies tees. 

Peter

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2010, 12:15:32 PM »
Excellent topic Michael, and since it actually relates to architecure, I'll chime it from my prospective as a recreational player.

First, it seems to me that there are any number of ways of coming at this issue, all vaild.  First, what do the professional architects actually do in practice, and why do the do it?  As I read him, Jeff B has given us his short answer to that question.  My recollection is that Tom Doak has also commented on his approach to this question from time to time here.

Second, apart from practicalities (protecting the land from developers, what the low-handicappers think), what does the fundamental nature of the game, however one defines it, have to do with how you approach the problem?  I'll come back to this later.

Third, is it possible to design for all tees at the same time?  (In other words, a "true course" from each set of tees).  I believe that professional architects answer this one with an emphatic "no," based on what I've read here earlier, but I could be wrong about that.

As an aside, what's the history of multiple tees, and what does that have to say about the true course?  I don't recall reading about that, specifically, in the history of golf, but my guess is that originally there was one tee on every hole.  In the recorded beginning, didn't you tee off within a club length or of the "cup" on the prior hole?  That would have had to suit everyone.  At some point after that I expect that forward tees were added for "ladies" play, and back tees for championship (medal) play, which suggests that historically the middle tees were for the "true" course, the one played every day.  Further, in my experience at many club courses in the home of golf, there is not much difference in length from the three sets of tees, and that for many the primary purpose of the separate back tee is to have a cleaner surface available for the championship matches.

Now, to close out this rambling, from my standpoint as a recreational player, the fundamental nature of the game suggests that you design for the average golfer, or at least for the average golfer that you wish to serve (taken as a given that you cannot design for everyone).  You then move shorter hitters up and longer hitters back.  So, the course is not "perfect" for them, which begs the question of exactly what do you mean by a "perfect" or "true" course.  To my own way of thinking, if you go back to the beginning of the game, the course was laid out is as best or most interesting manner on the ground you had.  I'm not saying that the hazards were random, but certainly more random than today.  Whereever they were, the player had to avoid them.  Whereever the best areas to hit the next shot from, the golfer had to try to find them.  One of the things I like most about golf is that there is not one absolutely best way for everyone to play a shot.  Longer hitters may have some advantages if the course is designed from the middle tees, but so what.  They may also have some different challenges.




Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2010, 01:15:28 PM »
Mike

Interesting question and one for the professionals to answer. If I may however, I would like to add an extra question, that being, is it that hard to put the forward most tees somewhere that doesn't make the player feel like they were designed as an after thought, and could they be designed in such a way that they have some relevance to the play of the hole ? Sorry that was two questions.

Like you I have played with good lady players and been dismayed at some of the tees they have had to play off. Of course they could have moved back a tee but try persuading them to give up that "advantage"  ::)

Niall

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2010, 02:32:06 PM »
Niall,

When I was prez of ASGCA, a female reporter took me to several courses in the area and convinced me of just how badly most gca's locate forward tees.  I am convinced they are too much of an after thought after that and I got religion!

I am still not as sensitive guy as I should be, but that day, I saw nearly every mistake I could think of, including tees behind trees, too far from paths, too small, too large, you name it.  IF you lay out the course from the back tees, at some point, you should take a day or so to really study it from the other tees.  Moving them up 20-35 yards per tee set is only the starting point.

Pete and Alice always say you should consider which way the lady needs to bend over to tee the ball when placing the cart path to ensure their comfort (although, they could always learn to tee the ball from a different angle and there is no way to consider lefties)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2010, 02:38:15 PM »
Jeff

I too used to be oblivious about ladies tees until I played at Kingsbarns with a lady golfer. It was though some of the tees had been hidden in dips and hollows so as not to spoil the view for the mens tees further back. I'm speaking from memory so I might be being harsh on KB but certainly remember the ladies tee on the long par 5 headed towards Crail was so far down in the dip I wondered if she was going to use a sand wedge to get out. Perhaps FBD could chip in here and give us the benefit of his experience of escorting ladies round Kingsbarns.

Niall

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2010, 02:50:30 PM »
Niall,

We should all be hard on ourselves for forward tee placement.  While it could always be better.......perhaps we need to beat up on our ownselves more, given getting more women to play may be the key to future golf growth.

I start with the distance factor, but its funny how often that comes out in a hole or where the best place is way too far from the cart path.  It often has to be moved foreward or back to the next knob, and really, on par 5 holes, I have found that playing with some decent women players, they really don't care for par 5's much over 405 minimum anyway, so I have no real trouble really shortening the par 5's by moving it to the next knob forward in almost all cases.

I don't know how much Kyle spent time on site, but I have personal experiences where the shapers or construction personnel actively put the ladies tees in the worst spot they can, with the old school attitude of keeping ladies off the golf course!  And, if I am not looking carefully for that, they can escape my attention on site visits.

I have recently tried putting a small ridge behind my forward tees again to sort of hide them from the mens tee set.  Nothing wrong with that, although it can't compromise the actual forward tee itself as sounds like your example at KB.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2010, 11:11:38 PM »

If each set of tees truly stands on its own, isn't the architect really designing multiple courses overlaying each other?


Yes.  And for different types of players from each tee.
Being varied and random helps.

The forward tees we built make for a fantastic golf course - a completely different experience from the other tees.
Different types of shots and challenges.
And not just a ratio of the main or back tees - their long hole could be the mens short hole....
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2010, 05:55:04 PM »
Michael,

I really design the course from the "best" natural tee for each hole.  Some of these wind up being back tees, and some middle tees, depending on what it adds up to and on where there are good alternative tees for each particular hole.  I have never thought of the forward tees first, although I may have a project on tap where that would be warranted.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2010, 06:30:06 PM »
Wonder when the advent of the multiple tees really began from an architectural standpoint? It seems that prior to 1980 most courses were built with blue(back),white(middle)and red(ladies or forward).  Now you will see up to six different tees on the newer designs. It is often possible to come up with a desired yardage by playing a composite set of tees. We have many times played the par 3`s and 5`s from the back tees and 4`s from the middle tees to come up with a fairer set up for all skill levels in the group.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2010, 06:37:46 PM »
Tim,

I think tees started proliferating somewhat before that, but maybe not by much.  4 was probably standard in 1980, I think.

You would be surprised at the number of pros who balk at the idea of mixed tees, because it makes figuring handicaps out a little harder.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2010, 09:56:44 PM »
Tim,
. . .
You would be surprised at the number of pros who balk at the idea of mixed tees, because it makes figuring handicaps out a little harder.

Wonder how many guys would take a club pro job if they knew they had to handle mixed tees?  I bet there are probably enough of them out there to replace the balkers -- but maybe I out of touch with the interest in club pro positions.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2010, 11:11:49 AM »
Niall,

When I was prez of ASGCA, a female reporter took me to several courses in the area and convinced me of just how badly most gca's locate forward tees.  I am convinced they are too much of an after thought after that and I got religion!

I am still not as sensitive guy as I should be, but that day, I saw nearly every mistake I could think of, including tees behind trees, too far from paths, too small, too large, you name it.  IF you lay out the course from the back tees, at some point, you should take a day or so to really study it from the other tees.  Moving them up 20-35 yards per tee set is only the starting point.

Since I play at least half my golf with my wife, I consider myself a bit of an "expert" on this matter.

She is a decent player at a 14 handicap, who has just reached retirement age.

The placement and design of forward tees is one of her favorite rants, and with good reason.  IIn addition to the problems you mention above, we also commonly see what appears to be a lack of interest or knowledge regarding how women play the game.

One thing that drives her crazy, is forced carries where --even after a decent tee shot--the only option is a wedge layup, followed by a wood, followed by a wedge.

One of the area superintendents told me he has played with some of the ladies groups --from their tees--just to get a sense of what they have to deal with.  In one case, he said, he immediately went out ofter a round to cut down an overhanging branch that blocked the tee shot.

Now, one of the biggest obstacles to improvements often comes from the women themselves.  At our course, for instance, we have a dogleg left par five where the tee is so close to the left side that it's virtually impossible to hit a tee shot into the real landing zone.  So we built a new tee on the other side of the fairway. But it could only be stretched to about 390 yards.

Now, a bunch of them have gotten it in their heads that par fives under 400 are "illegal" so they play off the old tee even though there are no markers on it.  And they have set up rules for the club championship requiring everyone to play from the old tee.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: At what distance is the "true" course designed?
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2010, 11:18:42 AM »
Ken,

Those are very typical stories.

As to the par 5, I doubt women really like them much over 410-420.  Even at 390 the 130 yard hitter can just barely get there in three shots.  If senior men don't mind an occaisional par 5 under 470 from their tees, I wonder why women wouldn't accept one under 405 from theirs?  I know that in general, they can be bigger sticklers for detail!

As I said, I start with moving the tees forward so they can get to the main LZ with 130-140 yard tee shots, but one of the things I study is whether that leaves a short layup if there is a forced carry.  Probably better to let them hit a full drive right to it, or far enough back for a better layup, even if it forces the hole to be a three shotter as a par 4.

I really aim for tee to green in 40 shots, as its hard to get every hole reachable in two shots.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back