[Patrick Kiser]

Matt,

The par 3 variety overall at Clear Creek is pretty damn good I'd say with the 2nd, 4th, 8th, 12th, and 17th.

Personally, if I had to choose between one of them it would be close between the 2nd and the 4th.

Totally different holes of course and longer, earlier in the round, etc., but I preferred the front 9 par 3s to the back 9.

I wonder if anyone else feels the same at all.

[Matt_Ward]

Patrick:

The striking elements of Clear Creek is the actual property and the way in which playability is maintained while providing enough juice for the longer and better player to be tested.

If you notice one other thing at CC -- C&C included plenty of long and narrow greens -- in many cases the land falls off quite sharply to either side.

The par-3's are all well done -- I'm not a fan of the long 12th -- just not enough design detail. Put the pin in the extreme far left at #2 and it's a helluva hole. I do agree with you that the front nine par-3's have the superior qualities although I think the 17th is just a fascinating hole and one, I was told, that Coore believes is one of his finest efforts.

[Patrick Kiser]

Patrick:

The striking elements of Clear Creek is the actual property and the way in which playability is maintained while providing enough juice for the longer and better player to be tested.

If you notice one other thing at CC -- C&C included plenty of long and narrow greens -- in many cases the land falls off quite sharply to either side.

The par-3's are all well done -- I'm not a fan of the long 12th -- just not enough design detail. Put the pin in the extreme far left at #2 and it's a helluva hole. I do agree with you that the front nine par-3's have the superior qualities although I think the 17th is just a fascinating hole and one, I was told, that Coore believes is one of his finest efforts.

Matt,

Maybe you already implied this, but I would add to your comment about falling off either side that the back of the greens are also quite deceptive given how they appear to fall off as well.  Depth perception on several of the holes is quite tricky.  You invariably find yourself thinking twice and can throttle back only to be disappointed (13th being a great example).  Just awesome in my opinion and plays with your head.  The key being to expose the back of those greens in such a way that they appear to be falling off and that means seeing either the horizon or at least nothing framing the back of the green (like closely tied in trees).

No disagreement on the 17th.  I added it to the recent "Drop shot par 3s" thread.  It's a killer little par 3.  Regarding the 12th, I think it's probably a sleeper.  It can probably lull you to sleep without anything glaring at you from the tee.  I got lucky with a short birdie putt and didn't take the time to give the hole some love.  TH certainly seems to think it's tough and challenging par 3 from the back and with the wind.

[Matt_Ward]

Patrick,

Clear Creek has plenty of green space -- it's just that when you narrow the target and then provide cut-out areas with more internal contours the need for exacting approach play is a must.

Take the 9th hole there -- just a great par-4 -- you need to work the tee ball (which too much of today's design doesn't do) and then you need to be utterly pinpoint precise with the approach. I played with the pin near the front -- I'd love to see the pin on the rear area -- just a fantastic spot !

The thing about CC is its location -- there's nothing around you -- total isolation -- reminds me although not at all similar in terms of topography with Pine Valley. You are lost in your thoughts when you play there.

Just wanted to add -- C&C provided one of the more thrilling holes you can play with the 3rd hole there. Coore, I have been told, was really challenged, to see how he could get from one area of the course to the other. It's incredibly hard to have a solid downhill par-4 of that length to be still challenging. When you stand on that tee box it's simply breathtaking -- ditto for the need for top flight precision and length with the tee ball.

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