[ward peyronnin]

Re Pavin as coach?

If one thing determined the RC it was PUTTING

The Americans chronically hit putts short that were in the jaws; even Charlie Rymer picked up on this.

As Captain you can't change guys swings or there rythym but you sure as hell can tell them not to leave putts short!

And if Pavin did there sure was no evidence that proffesionals who play the game all day everyday had that notion anywhere in their brains esp Sat.

That was avoidable and that may have cost them the Cup

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jim S-
I'd the say the course did exactly as it was intended--it created memorable matches, exciting action, spectacular golf by the best players in the world....and perhaps most importantly, it did all that and withstood monsoon-like rain for two days. 

Easily the most premature--and perhaps most wrong--post on GCA.com

Jason, Jim, David, Rick, et al:

First, I don't think I ever stated that the Ryder Cup this year was the worst of all time.  I merely posed deliberately provocative questions about the problems with this year's Ryder Cup.  Jason, I doubt you can really believe my post is the most premature and most wrong in GCA.com history.  The first post, as most good posts do, was design to generate some lively discussion about this year's Ryder Cup and its reflection of the state of golf.  I think I accomplished this objective.

I will restate my reasons for disliking this year's Ryder Cup:

SLOW PLAY: I don't care how close the matches are.  Watching a six-hour fourball match is like watching paint dry.  Stewart Cink's sandwich stop is the premier example of the spoiled 21st Century Tour Pro.

LIFT, CLEAN, AND PLACE: We hashed this out over the last few pages.  I think I made my views pretty clear on this issue.

THE COURSE: I don't care about how close the result is.  The Ryder Cup will usually be close because it consists of two teams of the best golfers in the world.  The course does not make a difference in that regard.  However, the course does affect the way in which the players play the golf course.  Any course that relies on soft conditions, water, and long rough for defense limits options and reduces golf to a physical rather than a mental test.

It is easy to say that I was proven wrong by the final score.  However, the score had nothing to do with my original critique.  My original argument was that this year's Ryder Cup showcased everything that is wrong with the modern game.  I think that point is still up for debate, and it is a point that is much more important than the tournament's final outcome.

I think this is merely a minority opinion.The majority think there is nothing wrong with the modern game and that the Ryder Cup is very high on the golf charts.This Ryder Cup was probably the worst modern one ever but it was bad luck because of the torrential rain, not finishing the matches on the day messed it all up. The final days play was special and the 14.5-13.5 is fairytale stuff, some may even say it was the best ever it all depends on how your scoring the best/worst, some of the dullest were the ones in the 70s played on the links courses, the RC only really took off when Jacklin got involved in 83, it was not allthat before. What you saw at CM would have happened pretty much anywhere here in the UK with that deluge. I cant agree that playing under Ryder Cup conditions would be a lesser mental test because of soft conditions, water or long roughquite simply these golfers are lieterally playing in a cauldron.

[Carl Nichols]

Re Pavin as coach?

If one thing determined the RC it was PUTTING

The Americans chronically hit putts short that were in the jaws; even Charlie Rymer picked up on this.

As Captain you can't change guys swings or there rythym but you sure as hell can tell them not to leave putts short!

And if Pavin did there sure was no evidence that proffesionals who play the game all day everyday had that notion anywhere in their brains esp Sat.

That was avoidable and that may have cost them the Cup

So you think that if Pavin didn't tell 12 of the best players in the world that they should get their putts to the hole or otherwise they won't make them, then he did a bad job? 

[ward peyronnin]

Absolutely. Why do they have headsets/golf course ruttin  carts , and vice captains: so they can coach!!!

Once balls are in the air there is not much one can coach but hittin putts is one of them.

Make a few putts and still lose by one ; i think not

[Tim Martin]

Jim S-
I'd the say the course did exactly as it was intended--it created memorable matches, exciting action, spectacular golf by the best players in the world....and perhaps most importantly, it did all that and withstood monsoon-like rain for two days. 

Easily the most premature--and perhaps most wrong--post on GCA.com

Jason, Jim, David, Rick, et al:

First, I don't think I ever stated that the Ryder Cup this year was the worst of all time.  I merely posed deliberately provocative questions about the problems with this year's Ryder Cup.  Jason, I doubt you can really believe my post is the most premature and most wrong in GCA.com history.  The first post, as most good posts do, was design to generate some lively discussion about this year's Ryder Cup and its reflection of the state of golf.  I think I accomplished this objective.

I will restate my reasons for disliking this year's Ryder Cup:

SLOW PLAY: I don't care how close the matches are.  Watching a six-hour fourball match is like watching paint dry.  Stewart Cink's sandwich stop is the premier example of the spoiled 21st Century Tour Pro.

LIFT, CLEAN, AND PLACE: We hashed this out over the last few pages.  I think I made my views pretty clear on this issue.

THE COURSE: I don't care about how close the result is.  The Ryder Cup will usually be close because it consists of two teams of the best golfers in the world.  The course does not make a difference in that regard.  However, the course does affect the way in which the players play the golf course.  Any course that relies on soft conditions, water, and long rough for defense limits options and reduces golf to a physical rather than a mental test.

It is easy to say that I was proven wrong by the final score.  However, the score had nothing to do with my original critique.  My original argument was that this year's Ryder Cup showcased everything that is wrong with the modern game.  I think that point is still up for debate, and it is a point that is much more important than the tournament's final outcome.

JNC-The only question you posed is the title of the thread. Then you went on to state every negative(in your own mind) imaginable to answer that question. Trying to back peddle now does not change that. Your reasons for "disliking this year`s Ryder Cup" don`t come close to making the case for" Worst Ryder Cup Ever".

[Jason Walker]

JNC-

The title of your thread was "Worst Ryder Cup ever?"  I couldn't disagree more.


Jason, Jim, David, Rick, et al:

First, I don't think I ever stated that the Ryder Cup this year was the worst of all time.

SLOW PLAY--I don't disagree that the pro game can get out of control regarding slow play.  However, after having the good fortune of being inside the ropes for some of Tom Watson's charge at Turnberry, it's IMPOSSIBLE to play fast -- the throngs of officials, media, friends/family, gallery management, and PRESSURE essentially slow the entire group to a crawl.  So take the dynamics of a Sunday Major final group and multiply it by the entire tournament as every group at every session at the RC faces the same challenges.  It's slow, deal with it, and no different than other RC's I've been a spectator at.  It sure didn't seem to damper the enthusiasm of the spectators!  Plus, I'd argue it's not that much slower than a best ball match play member/guest at your club.

LIFT, CLEAN, and PLACE--You made your points, I disagree with them.  For me it has nothing at all to do with an opinion about whether or not this is the worst Ryder Cup or not.  They played their opponents, not the course.

THE COURSE--The next time a Top-100 professional golfer spends more than 5 seconds comtemplating a "strategic architecture challenge" during a round of golf will be the first time.  I thought during this Ryder Cup that Celtic Manor made the players think after a miscue which made for some really heroic plays during the tournament.   And the reality is deep rough and water are about the only things that professionals have a difficulty recovering from.  

So I guess I'm trying to figure out how this Ryder Cup showcased EVERYTHING that is wrong with the modern game?  

[mike_malone]

 I don't know if this has been stated before but NBC was clueless  for about an hour saying that Mahon needed to win when the arithmetic was that a draw by him and one by Fowler would have worked. I thank the many gca threads on competitions for my picking that up. Finally, they got it and ,what do you know,  Fowler gets the half.


   I thought that McDowell was getable.  His swing is suspect and he started leaking oil on the back.

   Certainly this proved that we can't judge the contest until it is over. I began to watch it at 7 Eastern this morning and said I would turn it off when it was decided. That wasn't until McDowell's last putt.

[Sean_A]

I don't know if this has been stated before but NBC was clueless  for about an hour saying that Mahon needed to win when the arithmetic was that a draw by him and one by Fowler would have worked. I thank the many gca threads on competitions for my picking that up. Finally, they got it and ,what do you know,  Fowler gets the half.


   I thought that McDowell was getable.  His swing is suspect and he started leaking oil on the back.

   Certainly this proved that we can't judge the contest until it is over. I began to watch it at 7 Eastern this morning and said I would turn it off when it was decided. That wasn't until McDowell's last putt.

Mayday

The only problem is Mahan was down and leaking just as much if not more oil than McD.  I think the fluff chip told us that even if we didn't want to believe it after coming up two clubs short on the 14(?).  

Ciao

[Carl Nichols]

I don't know if this has been stated before but NBC was clueless  for about an hour saying that Mahon needed to win when the arithmetic was that a draw by him and one by Fowler would have worked. I thank the many gca threads on competitions for my picking that up. Finally, they got it and ,what do you know,  Fowler gets the half.


   I thought that McDowell was getable.  His swing is suspect and he started leaking oil on the back.

   Certainly this proved that we can't judge the contest until it is over. I began to watch it at 7 Eastern this morning and said I would turn it off when it was decided. That wasn't until McDowell's last putt.

OK, perhaps the title of this thread should be moved to "Worst Ryder Cup Telecast Ever?" and I would be able to concur with Mr. Lyon wholeheartedly. I went to the club to play yesterday, took a swing on the opening hole with my driver, felt a pain like a grenade went off in my right shoulder and promptly retired to the men's grill to watch the telecast. Was it me or did anyone else notice that NBC would show exactly 2 shots and then cut to a commercial. They did this upwards of 10 times in a row. Finally, I said to hell with it and went to take a shower. I came back and asked our Asst. Pro what I missed. His honest response? 2 approach shots and 4 putts.

How about "Best Ryder Cup to have had TIVO for?"  It wouldn't surprise me if the split between content and commercials was 50/50 -- even if you include the background stories as part of the content. 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

what do you guys want from a Ryder CUP...GOES DOWN TO THE LAST MATCH FOR A WINNER..Great golf shots, gallery that was really into it...a so/so golf course I give on that one...but for entertainment value ...wonderful.
The TV coverage, well anytime you have one of the networks doing it you have to expect the worst and that is what we got in terms if commercilas etc...
But the golf itself was superb, I was thinking it was one of the best...but perhaps that is because my boys WON !!!!

[James Boon]

Michael,

I have to agree, I thought it was a pretty special Ryder Cup this year!

The Monday finish certainly makes it something to remember but what a days golf. I was tearing my hair out sitting in the office listening to it on the radio, but the fight the American team put up was incredible! Woods and Johnson suddenly coming to life, Fowler's finish, it was incredible stuff and almost one hell of a fightback.

And the course, wow! Watching both yesterday afternoon and todays play, you would hardly imagine the course was unplayable on Friday and then again on Sun morning. Those were some downpours that would have closed pretty much any course, and yet not long after its all drained away and looked to be playing great. Regardless of the time of year, or location, or whatever, you have to take your hats off to the guys who built the course. Drainage, drainage, drainage as they say!

Cheers,

James

[JNC Lyon]

Jim S-
I'd the say the course did exactly as it was intended--it created memorable matches, exciting action, spectacular golf by the best players in the world....and perhaps most importantly, it did all that and withstood monsoon-like rain for two days. 

Easily the most premature--and perhaps most wrong--post on GCA.com

Jason, Jim, David, Rick, et al:

First, I don't think I ever stated that the Ryder Cup this year was the worst of all time.  I merely posed deliberately provocative questions about the problems with this year's Ryder Cup.  Jason, I doubt you can really believe my post is the most premature and most wrong in GCA.com history.  The first post, as most good posts do, was design to generate some lively discussion about this year's Ryder Cup and its reflection of the state of golf.  I think I accomplished this objective.

I will restate my reasons for disliking this year's Ryder Cup:

SLOW PLAY: I don't care how close the matches are.  Watching a six-hour fourball match is like watching paint dry.  Stewart Cink's sandwich stop is the premier example of the spoiled 21st Century Tour Pro.

LIFT, CLEAN, AND PLACE: We hashed this out over the last few pages.  I think I made my views pretty clear on this issue.

THE COURSE: I don't care about how close the result is.  The Ryder Cup will usually be close because it consists of two teams of the best golfers in the world.  The course does not make a difference in that regard.  However, the course does affect the way in which the players play the golf course.  Any course that relies on soft conditions, water, and long rough for defense limits options and reduces golf to a physical rather than a mental test.

It is easy to say that I was proven wrong by the final score.  However, the score had nothing to do with my original critique.  My original argument was that this year's Ryder Cup showcased everything that is wrong with the modern game.  I think that point is still up for debate, and it is a point that is much more important than the tournament's final outcome.

JNC-The only question you posed is the title of the thread. Then you went on to state every negative(in your own mind) imaginable to answer that question. Trying to back peddle now does not change that. Your reasons for "disliking this year`s Ryder Cup" don`t come close to making the case for" Worst Ryder Cup Ever".

Tim,

Read my first post.  I pose two questions there.  After that, we began to explore questions of whether or not the proceedings in this year's Ryder Cup violated the long-held traditions and spirit of the game.  That was what the thread is REALLY about to me, not my provocative but admittedly simplistic title question.  I am not back peddling from anything I said before.  Rather, everyone has stated that I need to back peddle from every argument I made in this thread because they don't like my answer to my own leading question.

The thread's questions were not meant merely to draw simple "yes" or "no" answers to my original question but to generate deep, exploratory answers to critical questions about the game.  Like I said before, I think accomplished that goal very considering all the discussion about those issues on this thread.

[Dan King]

Michael Wharton-Palmer  writes:
But the golf itself was superb

Was there any golf played? All I saw was lift, clean and cheat.

It looked like a beautiful day in Wales today and they all spent the day fondling their balls.

It should be a requirement that in the Ryder Cup they must play golf.

Cheers,
Dan King

I keep waiting to meet a man who has more balls than I do.
 --Salma Hayek

[JNC Lyon]

Jim S-
I'd the say the course did exactly as it was intended--it created memorable matches, exciting action, spectacular golf by the best players in the world....and perhaps most importantly, it did all that and withstood monsoon-like rain for two days. 

Easily the most premature--and perhaps most wrong--post on GCA.com

Jason, Jim, David, Rick, et al:

First, I don't think I ever stated that the Ryder Cup this year was the worst of all time.  I merely posed deliberately provocative questions about the problems with this year's Ryder Cup.  Jason, I doubt you can really believe my post is the most premature and most wrong in GCA.com history.  The first post, as most good posts do, was design to generate some lively discussion about this year's Ryder Cup and its reflection of the state of golf.  I think I accomplished this objective.

I will restate my reasons for disliking this year's Ryder Cup:

SLOW PLAY: I don't care how close the matches are.  Watching a six-hour fourball match is like watching paint dry.  Stewart Cink's sandwich stop is the premier example of the spoiled 21st Century Tour Pro.

LIFT, CLEAN, AND PLACE: We hashed this out over the last few pages.  I think I made my views pretty clear on this issue.

THE COURSE: I don't care about how close the result is.  The Ryder Cup will usually be close because it consists of two teams of the best golfers in the world.  The course does not make a difference in that regard.  However, the course does affect the way in which the players play the golf course.  Any course that relies on soft conditions, water, and long rough for defense limits options and reduces golf to a physical rather than a mental test.

It is easy to say that I was proven wrong by the final score.  However, the score had nothing to do with my original critique.  My original argument was that this year's Ryder Cup showcased everything that is wrong with the modern game.  I think that point is still up for debate, and it is a point that is much more important than the tournament's final outcome.

I think this is merely a minority opinion.The majority think there is nothing wrong with the modern game and that the Ryder Cup is very high on the golf charts.

Adrian, just because the Majority thinks there is nothing wrong with the game does not mean there is nothing wrong with the game.  In fact, if the majority of golfers realized there was something wrong with modern golf, the problems I have pointed out during the course of this thread might be addressed.  If you feel confident in your opinion because it is backed up by the untamed masses, more power to you.  However, an opinion does not gain intellectual credibility from populist support.

This Ryder Cup was probably the worst modern one ever but it was bad luck because of the torrential rain, not finishing the matches on the day messed it all up. The final days play was special and the 14.5-13.5 is fairytale stuff, some may even say it was the best ever it all depends on how your scoring the best/worst, some of the dullest were the ones in the 70s played on the links courses, the RC only really took off when Jacklin got involved in 83, it was not allthat before. What you saw at CM would have happened pretty much anywhere here in the UK with that deluge. I cant agree that playing under Ryder Cup conditions would be a lesser mental test because of soft conditions, water or long roughquite simply these golfers are lieterally playing in a cauldron.

[Richard Choi]

The thread's questions were not meant merely to draw simple "yes" or "no" answers to my original question but to generate deep, exploratory answers to critical questions about the game.  Like I said before, I think accomplished that goal very considering all the discussion about those issues on this thread.

The only deep, exploratory answer we got is that "Worst Ryder Cup Ever" thread should not exist before the last match has completed.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC-

The title of your thread was "Worst Ryder Cup ever?"  I couldn't disagree more.


Jason, Jim, David, Rick, et al:

First, I don't think I ever stated that the Ryder Cup this year was the worst of all time.

There is a difference between the sentence "Worst Ryder Cup Ever?" and "Worst Ryder Cup Ever."  One is a question, the other is a statement.  I asked a question.

SLOW PLAY--I don't disagree that the pro game can get out of control regarding slow play.  However, after having the good fortune of being inside the ropes for some of Tom Watson's charge at Turnberry, it's IMPOSSIBLE to play fast -- the throngs of officials, media, friends/family, gallery management, and PRESSURE essentially slow the entire group to a crawl.  So take the dynamics of a Sunday Major final group and multiply it by the entire tournament as every group at every session at the RC faces the same challenges.  It's slow, deal with it, and no different than other RC's I've been a spectator at.  It sure didn't seem to damper the enthusiasm of the spectators!  Plus, I'd argue it's not that much slower than a best ball match play member/guest at your club.

It is possible to play fast during major championships.  Look at Jeff Overton during the final round of the PGA Championship.  I am sure crowd control is an issue at these tournaments, especially the Ryder Cup.  But how does that account for the multi-practice swing pre-shot routines and the incredibly long tenures on each putting green.  Surely these guys, the most skilled golfers in the world, would not be affected if they had to speed up these routines.

Remember, too, that most "spectators" at every one of these majors are watching on television.  They see these pre-shot routines and feel the need to apply them to their own game.  Play everywhere slows down, as it has over the last few decades.  Suddenly, slow play is everywhere, and the game is damaged.  This Ryder Cup certainly is not the first example of slow play, but it seemed it was worse than usual this year.

LIFT, CLEAN, and PLACE--You made your points, I disagree with them.  For me it has nothing at all to do with an opinion about whether or not this is the worst Ryder Cup or not.  They played their opponents, not the course.

Yes, but the challenge of dealing with the adversity of imperfection and bad luck, one of the key aspects of golf, was eliminated here.  That changes the competition for the worse and makes it less of a mental test.  Just because a contest is equal does not mean it is good.

THE COURSE--The next time a Top-100 professional golfer spends more than 5 seconds comtemplating a "strategic architecture challenge" during a round of golf will be the first time.  I thought during this Ryder Cup that Celtic Manor made the players think after a miscue which made for some really heroic plays during the tournament.   And the reality is deep rough and water are about the only things that professionals have a difficulty recovering from.

That is clearly not true.  There are plenty of courses on tour with deep rough and water that yield low scores.  Short grass and well-presented green complexes provide interesting challenges to golfers.  Golf is not so much about defending par as it is about testing mental abilities.  Surely you do not think deep rough and water are ideal hazards?  If so, you should read some of the writings of Geoff Shackelford and Tom Doak to see how these hazards are (A) unimaginative, and (B) adversely affecting the game.

So I guess I'm trying to figure out how this Ryder Cup showcased EVERYTHING that is wrong with the modern game?  

[JNC Lyon]

The thread's questions were not meant merely to draw simple "yes" or "no" answers to my original question but to generate deep, exploratory answers to critical questions about the game.  Like I said before, I think accomplished that goal very considering all the discussion about those issues on this thread.

The only deep, exploratory answer we got is that "Worst Ryder Cup Ever" thread should not exist before the last match has completed.

Your mistake about the title of the thread not withstanding, I am wondering why I should not have posed this question.  The match violates the spirit of the game in every conceivable fashion, and then when the score ends up close all is forgiven?  I don't think so.  Like I said before, my basis for the criticism of the Ryder Cup had nothing to do with score.

[Adrian_Stiff]

JNC- I dont think there is that much wrong with the modern game, I think roll the ball back for the top players, but let others use the tecnolodgy, if people want carts let them use then, if people want to walk let then. Slow Play would be my dissapointment with todays game, not sure of a solution really. I am not keen on artifical measuring devices and at a new course we just opened I really wanted the course unmapped, no yardage markers, planners..... my opinion was a popular as a fart in a spacesuit.
No lift and place in a British winter would be equally as appealing.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC- I dont think there is that much wrong with the modern game, I think roll the ball back for the top players, but let others use the tecnolodgy, if people want carts let them use then, if people want to walk let then. Slow Play would be my dissapointment with todays game, not sure of a solution really. I am not keen on artifical measuring devices and at a new course we just opened I really wanted the course unmapped, no yardage markers, planners..... my opinion was a popular as a fart in a spacesuit.
No lift and place in a British winter would be equally as appealing.

Like I said before, if golf's traditions are not sufficiently appealing to people, they should try another game.

[Adrian_Stiff]

JNC -Live and let live.

[Richard Choi]

Your mistake about the title of the thread not withstanding, I am wondering why I should not have posed this question.  The match violates the spirit of the game in every conceivable fashion, and then when the score ends up close all is forgiven?  I don't think so.  Like I said before, my basis for the criticism of the Ryder Cup had nothing to do with score.

LCP is used in EVERY PGA tournament, why are you singling out the Ryder Cup? I would be perfectly fine if we had the 567th rant thread about LCP, but to imply that somehow the Ryder Cup is singular in this practice and somehow it lessened the enjoyment of the overall tournament was asinine to say the least.

EVERYBODY on this board (including you, as you have stated) lift the ball regularly. If that is THE spirit of the game that binds us together, the sport of golf is in much bigger trouble than I thought.

[Tim Martin]

EVERYBODY on this board (including you, as you have stated) lift the ball regularly. If that is THE spirit of the game that binds us together, the sport of golf is in much bigger trouble than I thought.

Richard Choi- Right on the money!

[David_Tepper]

"Like I said before, if golf's traditions are not sufficiently appealing to people, they should try another game."

The golfing-Taliban has spoken!

[John Moore II]

I don't know if this has been stated before but NBC was clueless  for about an hour saying that Mahon needed to win when the arithmetic was that a draw by him and one by Fowler would have worked. I thank the many gca threads on competitions for my picking that up. Finally, they got it and ,what do you know,  Fowler gets the half.


   I thought that McDowell was getable.  His swing is suspect and he started leaking oil on the back.

   Certainly this proved that we can't judge the contest until it is over. I began to watch it at 7 Eastern this morning and said I would turn it off when it was decided. That wasn't until McDowell's last putt.

Mayday

The only problem is Mahan was down and leaking just as much if not more oil than McD.  I think the fluff chip told us that even if we didn't want to believe it after coming up two clubs short on the 14(?).  

Ciao

It was 14, but which golfer are you talking about? McDowell chunked his approach miles short of the surface, and Hunter, with a real chance to grab him by the nose and kick him in the teeth, feathered one up there well short as well. And, well, my thoughts on holes 16 and 17 are written out all ready.

[JNC Lyon]

Your mistake about the title of the thread not withstanding, I am wondering why I should not have posed this question.  The match violates the spirit of the game in every conceivable fashion, and then when the score ends up close all is forgiven?  I don't think so.  Like I said before, my basis for the criticism of the Ryder Cup had nothing to do with score.

LCP is used in EVERY PGA tournament, why are you singling out the Ryder Cup? I would be perfectly fine if we had the 567th rant thread about LCP, but to imply that somehow the Ryder Cup is singular in this practice and somehow it lessened the enjoyment of the overall tournament was asinine to say the least.

EVERYBODY on this board (including you, as you have stated) lift the ball regularly. If that is THE spirit of the game that binds us together, the sport of golf is in much bigger trouble than I thought.

I suppose this year's Ryder Cup was the perfect storm for me.  We had a 59 this year tarnished by lift, clean, and place (the second one on tour, in fact) this year.  Play gets slower and slower.  Courses become longer, more difficult, and less interesting.  I guess my distaste for this Ryder Cup was the result of several building factors that I had not complained about until now.  The Ryder Cup is just one example of how the modern game has been removed from its original form.

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