[Mark Pearce]

Let's be honest, none of Pavin's picks stunk as badly as Harrington, yet I don't see anyone decrying Monty as captain.  And yet, for just one more measly half point, Pavin would now be viewed in an utterly different light.

[Terry Lavin]

Let's be honest, none of Pavin's picks stunk as badly as Harrington, yet I don't see anyone decrying Monty as captain.  And yet, for just one more measly half point, Pavin would now be viewed in an utterly different light.

Pithy, but quite correct.  The golf is not about the captains, but about the golfers.  The Euros were just barely better in their battle on this snoozer of a golf course.

[Tim Martin]

This thread should be asking "Worst Ryder Cup Captain Ever?"

Pavin stunk.

Pat:

Too harsh. I think Pavin did an admirable job, and got a lot of a team with five rookies on Euro soil on a course few if any had played, and with Mickelson and (at least until singles) Tiger -- the best players in the world the past decade -- clearly off form. I think in the end, Euro's big players -- Westwood, Poulter, McDowell and Donald -- played much better than the US's big stars -- Tiger (carried by Stricker for the most part), Mickelson, and Furyk. Furyk in particular stands out as disappointing -- coming off FedEx win, won the fewest points on the US side.

Phil-Agreed. Another 1/2 point and the cup stays with the U.S. How much effect did he really have? Hell, the "captainess" had more of an effect with those dopey rain suits.

[Phil McDade]

Let's be honest, none of Pavin's picks stunk as badly as Harrington, yet I don't see anyone decrying Monty as captain.  And yet, for just one more measly half point, Pavin would now be viewed in an utterly different light.

Monty WAS dumb to pick Harrington. But he was really, really smart to pick Donald (amid some controversy in doing so over Casey among others), and Donald showed he is one of best RCup players of his generation -- now 8-2-1 in three RCups.

[Richard Choi]

This captain thing has gotten riciculous.  It simply boils down to each man, the club in his hand and the ball on the ground - nothing more, nothing less.  I think Pavin conducted himself with dignity - that's all I ask of a captain.  

Bogey, you gotta admit Montgomery was able to lit some serious fire after the first two sessions. Euros came out like gangbusters after that "speech".

[Carl Rogers]

I think that the home Captain gets an advantage for his team through course set up.  In this case, narrow fairways, unplayable rough and slow greens took the Americans out of their element.

May be course set up could be a process of consensus between the Captains .... though hard to reach a consensus.

The Captains get too much credit for victory and too much blame for defeat.  Who knows who will putt well that week? or bring there best game?

I do think that Luke Donald has earned a future Captain spot.

[Mike Hendren]

Richard, I'd be reluctant to credit Monte - or any other captain.  Any professional with an ounce of price would have come out fighting after being embarrassed on home turf.  

[Kenny Baer]

Giving the credit to any captain is absurd; Monty could have picked the US lineup for the US team and then chosen his own lineup to face the lineup he picked  and it wouldn't make a difference and vice versa for Pavin.  The only idfference they make is the captains picks; after that it is done.  These guys are all so good that  anyone of them (or any two) could beat the other one (or another pair) any given day.

[George Pazin]

Don't know if anyone mentioned it, but I'd prefer to see future contests have everyone participating in each session, as they were forced to do after the first day because of the weather. I don't like anyone sitting, and the days of the deeper US team are long long long long gone. Long gone.

[Mark Pearce]

Let's be honest, none of Pavin's picks stunk as badly as Harrington, yet I don't see anyone decrying Monty as captain.  And yet, for just one more measly half point, Pavin would now be viewed in an utterly different light.

Monty WAS dumb to pick Harrington. But he was really, really smart to pick Donald (amid some controversy in doing so over Casey among others), and Donald showed he is one of best RCup players of his generation -- now 8-2-1 in three RCups.

Phil,

I didn't hear any controversy this side of the ocean about the choice of Donald.  World top 10, won on the European Tour this year, came third at CM this year, one of the best foursomes players we have had, rock solid in fourball.  The controversy here was all around Harrington and Casey or Rose.  The vast majority agreed with the picks of Donald and Molinari and the few dissenters in respect of either of them were in respect of Dodo.

[Phil McDade]

Giving the credit to any captain is absurd; Monty could have picked the US lineup for the US team and then chosen his own lineup to face the lineup he picked  and it wouldn't make a difference and vice versa for Pavin.  The only idfference they make is the captains picks; after that it is done.  These guys are all so good that  anyone of them (or any two) could beat the other one (or another pair) any given day.

Kenny:

If you'd asked Monty three months ago -- if the Ryder Cup comes to one match, on home soil, on that course, who would you want out there? I guarantee he'd say McDowell. A lot had to happen to have the Cup to come down to the last match, but Monty showed a lot of smarts by saving McDowell as one major insurance policy (notice that, unlike Strange in 2002, he didn't save all of his big guns for the end -- just one.)

[Niall C]

Phil

How smart would Monty have looked if the last match out had been academic ? To leave your guy who is the reigning USOpen Champion and a winner over the Ryder Cup course out to last when he might not have counted could have bitten him on the arse.

Overall Europe probably desrved to shade it for yesterdays performance but I think both sides take great credit for the way they played and the spirit the game was played in. For my money the player of the weekend could be anyone out of Stricker, Cink, Donald and possibly Poulter.

Niall

[Phil McDade]

Phil

How smart would Monty have looked if the last match out had been academic ? To leave your guy who is the reigning USOpen Champion and a winner over the Ryder Cup course out to last when he might not have counted could have bitten him on the arse.

Overall Europe probably desrved to shade it for yesterdays performance but I think both sides take great credit for the way they played and the spirit the game was played in. For my money the player of the weekend could be anyone out of Stricker, Cink, Donald and possibly Poulter.

Niall

Niall:

To me, Monty's singles line-up made a lot of sense. He certainly knew Pavin would front-load his lineup (which he did, with his two most on-form players during the week leading off -- Stricker and Cink -- and Furyk, 4-1-1 all-time in RC singles play). So he countered with Westwood, McIlroy and Donald, three of Euro's better players (a better bet than starting off with, say, Fisher, Hanson or the Molinari's). But I'm guessing Monty also viewed his squad as probably not as strong in singles play as the US side, so he left himself with one insurance policy, knowing he'd have to "hide" some of his weaker singles players in the middle (to me, a big win for Euro was Jimenez, who'd never won in singles and drew an obviously off-form Watson, which was a bit of luck for Monty).

I think you're right -- Euro deserved the win, made a few more putts and a few more shots in a very close contest. Captains don't play a shot, of course, and don't have a ton of decisions to make, but Monty made a few big ones correctly, and in a match this close, I think he deserves some credit for his role.

[Jud_T]

Phil,

I like Monty.  He's one of the few guys who's not afraid to speak his mind.  And I'm happy for him as this obviously was dear to his heart.  But if MacD doesn't drain that birdie putt on 16 and Mahan pulled off the half it would have glaringly come down to his choice of Harrington over Casey.  Everyone's dumping on Pavin because he gave the press nothing.  I guarantee he wanted it as much or more than anyone...And on a long, wet golf course how does Bubba Watson not thump Jimenez?  Did Bubba make a putt all week?

[JSlonis]

If Stewart Cink could have wiggled in a couple of short putts on 15 & 16 we are having an entirely different discussion.  This was damn close to being a Brookline type performance from the USA and Pavin would be praised for his steadiness.

Ultimately,the players determine everything and the Euro's just thrashed us yesterday which gave them just enough of a cushion today.

[Mark McKeever]

Well put Jamie.  My thoughts exactly.

Mark

[Niall C]

Phil

At the end of the day I'm not sure it would have made a whole lot of difference. When all is said and done I don't think Captains win you the cup but they can lose it, witness Nick Faldo last time round. In this case both captains managed not to hurt there chances, and Pavin as the losing Captain certainly doesn't desrve any brickbats from what I saw.

Niall

[Phil McDade]

Phil,

I like Monty.  He's one of the few guys who's not afraid to speak his mind.  And I'm happy for him as this obviously was dear to his heart.  But if MacD doesn't drain that birdie putt on 16 and Mahan pulled off the half it would have glaringly come down to his choice of Harrington over Casey.  Everyone's dumping on Pavin because he gave the press nothing.  I guarantee he wanted it as much or more than anyone...And on a long, wet golf course how does Bubba Watson not thump Jimenez?  Did Bubba make a putt all week?

Jud:

I, too, think Monty gets dumped on a lot, for a guy who usually speaks his mind. I don't think you can criticize Pavin (as for the silly wet-suit thing -- didn't the US win that session?) -- I think his team played well, in most circumstances, and certainly rookies like Overton overall and Fowler today acquitted themselves really well. Was Monty over-sold on Harrington's value to the team? Sure. But he's the one who put out McDowell in what turned out to be an incredibly tense situation. He obviously handled the pressure a lot better than Mahan did. (After butchering 15, he hit a tough drive in the fairway, sank a putt, and put himself in better position with his tee shot on 17. Mahan -- after a great flop shot on 15 to essentially win the hole, hit a poor drive on 16 which really ruined his chance of playing for a birdie, and hit two poor shots on 17. That's just sports -- two guys battling it out under great pressure and one performing better than the other. And I don't think you can hang Mahan out to dry -- Cink missing two putts of less than 5 feet, and Furyk essentially handing a win to Donald with his poor approach shot at 18, were pretty poor.)

Long golf courses being a supposed advantage are over-rated; all of these guys can handle the length, esp. Jimenez, who is very good with long irons and utility woods. It seemed, from my viewing, that accuracy played a pretty big role with the way the course was set-up (rough, especially).

[David Camponi]

Phil,

Your argument is total hindsight; it worked out because McDowell played well and in more truth Mahan played like shit.  Mahan and McDowell play 10x they probably split 5/5; this time McDowell came through that somehow makes the captain wise?

It means nothing and is a ceremonial post; as Kenny said you could pick the lineup for the Amercian team and then put the lineup for your team and you could not guarantee that your team would win, if that is possible then the coach is useless. 

[Phil McDade]

Phil,

Your argument is total hindsight; it worked out because McDowell played well and in more truth Mahan played like shit.  Mahan and McDowell play 10x they probably split 5/5; this time McDowell came through that somehow makes the captain wise?

 

I'd argue that if McDowell and Mahan play 10 times -- in those exact circumstances, on that course -- McDowell wins 7 or 8 times.

[JNC Lyon]

Jim S-
I'd the say the course did exactly as it was intended--it created memorable matches, exciting action, spectacular golf by the best players in the world....and perhaps most importantly, it did all that and withstood monsoon-like rain for two days. 

Easily the most premature--and perhaps most wrong--post on GCA.com

Jason, Jim, David, Rick, et al:

First, I don't think I ever stated that the Ryder Cup this year was the worst of all time.  I merely posed deliberately provocative questions about the problems with this year's Ryder Cup.  Jason, I doubt you can really believe my post is the most premature and most wrong in GCA.com history.  The first post, as most good posts do, was design to generate some lively discussion about this year's Ryder Cup and its reflection of the state of golf.  I think I accomplished this objective.

I will restate my reasons for disliking this year's Ryder Cup:

SLOW PLAY: I don't care how close the matches are.  Watching a six-hour fourball match is like watching paint dry.  Stewart Cink's sandwich stop is the premier example of the spoiled 21st Century Tour Pro.

LIFT, CLEAN, AND PLACE: We hashed this out over the last few pages.  I think I made my views pretty clear on this issue.

THE COURSE: I don't care about how close the result is.  The Ryder Cup will usually be close because it consists of two teams of the best golfers in the world.  The course does not make a difference in that regard.  However, the course does affect the way in which the players play the golf course.  Any course that relies on soft conditions, water, and long rough for defense limits options and reduces golf to a physical rather than a mental test.

It is easy to say that I was proven wrong by the final score.  However, the score had nothing to do with my original critique.  My original argument was that this year's Ryder Cup showcased everything that is wrong with the modern game.  I think that point is still up for debate, and it is a point that is much more important than the tournament's final outcome.

[Phil McDade]

JNC:

I think it's necessarily an either-or; you can have a pretty compelling Ryder Cup competition, like this year's, on a course that leaves much to be desired -- which Celtic Manor did. The 2008 Ryder Cup and 2000 PGA were pretty compelling to watch, even on a course like Valhalla that's pretty dull. What bothered me about CManor is that the course didn't seem to provide many options for how players could go after it, in terms of risk/reward holes -- a great attribute for courses used for match play. Even the announcers said that every single player went for the green on 15, an otherwise interesting-looking hole rendered one-dimensional. I'd rather see a RCup venue with a mix of holes -- some tough, some easy, with options (one reason I think Whistling Straits, for all the criticism it receives, could make for a very good RCup venue).

[Pat Burke]

I always thought it was funny when I was playing.  Would shoot a typically stellar 73 or so on a sat round,
would get home and pretty much the same 2 or 3 guys would chirp about how a 70 would have put me in the top 20, 10, whatever.

Of course, 70s are pretty easy out there!

One of the "regulars" of the stupid comments got divorced.  Should have told him that 1 less mistress would have saved him 1/2 of his wealth.

[Jud_T]

Should have told him that 1 less mistress would have saved him 1/2 of his wealth.

Classic! Now THATS what I call advanced mathematics....

[Richard Choi]

I will restate my reasons for disliking this year's Ryder Cup:

SLOW PLAY: I don't care how close the matches are.  Watching a six-hour fourball match is like watching paint dry.  Stewart Cink's sandwich stop is the premier example of the spoiled 21st Century Tour Pro.

LIFT, CLEAN, AND PLACE: We hashed this out over the last few pages.  I think I made my views pretty clear on this issue.

THE COURSE: I don't care about how close the result is.  The Ryder Cup will usually be close because it consists of two teams of the best golfers in the world.  The course does not make a difference in that regard.  However, the course does affect the way in which the players play the golf course.  Any course that relies on soft conditions, water, and long rough for defense limits options and reduces golf to a physical rather than a mental test.

How the heck is this any different than practically ANY Ryder Cup that has played over last 20 years? The only difference is that other events got lucky and didn't get torrential downpours. And you are going to blame the event for weather luck? (and don't be blaming Wales location, hell, if they played in east coast this year, they would have gotten washed out too)

You may not care about the results, but 99.9% of others care about the results above all else.

It was a GREAT Ryder Cup by almost every measure and will be talked about for a long time. I will take a Ryder Cup that was decided on the 17th hole of the last match played on someone's backyard over a Ryder Cup pasting jobs (that we have seen a lot over the last 20 years) played on Pine Valley - you can throw in LCP while you are at it.

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