[Dan King]

Adrian_Stiff writes:
That might just be the craziest post. You cant play with a lump of mud on the ball!!!!!

Been there, done it.

YOU might not be able to play with mud on your ball, but you can improve and get better at golf. Course, if you are always playing lift, clean and cheat when the weather gets a wee bit nasty, you will never get better at golf.

Matt_Ward writes:
Those purists who insist on globs of mud attached to the ball need to get a life.

Got one, thanks.

I would rather they play golf, with all its many imperfections. If that means occasionally some mud on the ball, so be it. In golf you are suppose to keep your bluidy hands of the golf ball.

Cheers,
Dan King

Would that I could hand on unimpaired the great game as it was my good fortune to know it!
 --Charles Blair Macdonald

[Pat Burke]

First, as a player, I definitely have a bias in the lift clean and place debate.
I did/do not hit it very far, and believed that my advantage was an ability to control and shape the ball.
JNC, there are courses, were you will have mud on your ball almost every time you hit a fairway (in these conditions).
In my gsme, hitting fairways and greens was the goal.  Hitting a fairway and constantly having crap all over my ball, and having any good results, WAS all luck. 
I am a links golf lover, and an Australia sandbelt lover.  Courses built correctly to handle the rain
and offering options for recovery and ground shots, ARE able to be played reasonably in these conditions.
Courses like the 2010 with the forced carries, and hazards waiting to punish, are not able to be reasonably played with globs of
crap all over your ball.  I like your passion, and believe most of the same.  For me (and my bias ) the course determines much of the decision on lift clean and place

[Brian_Sleeman]

Agreed on the ridiculous pace of play.  Stewart Cink ate a sandwich, drank a bottle of water, and took a couple of laps around the green before he made that putt on the 17th this morning.  Was it effective?  Yes, but it had other effects, too.

[Ulrich Mayring]

At least they're letting the faster groups play through - so next time there's an argument at your club, you can at least draw upon that example

Ulrich

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

Nothing wrong with living in the idealic world. Pro golf needs to get through a compressed window for the TV audience and pick and clean -- call it what one may -- is a necessity.

Yes, I wish a pure links course were used but if you add up most of your objections the reality is that Mother Nature dictates plenty.

I don't like the slow play but when was any Ryder Cup match a speedfest?

I hear your points but you need to realize what other elements are involved with such an event.

[Dan King]

Pat Burke writes:
I did/do not hit it very far, and believed that my advantage was an ability to control and shape the ball.

For selfish reasons we would all hope the rules could be worked to our advantage. Doesn't mean they should.

At one time golf was a game were you didn't touch the ball. The ruling bodies -- in their infinite wisdom -- have decided that there are numerous instances were the golfer can get their hands on the ball. Each time they get away from the essence of golf, taking it out of nature and turning it into a physical rather than mental game.

Lift, clean and cheat doesn't even resemble golf. It should be uttlerly cryed downe. It's shocking non-golf has so many supporters here.

Cheers,
Dan King

The rules are based on three fundamental principles: That the golfer must play the ball as it lies, play the course as he finds it, and finally, where neither of the first two principles can apply, settle all questions by fair play.
 --Joseph C. Dey, Jr., 1956

 

[Mark Pearce]

John, Dan,

I'm struggling here and feel really uncomfortable.  I see Matt Ward and Adrian Stiff on one side of an argument and find myself agreeing with them completely.  I'm sorry but an event like the Ryder Cup should not be played with mud on the ball.  I don't like lift, clean and cheat any more than you but in this case it was that or don't play and don't play wasn't an option.

[Garland Bayley]

The thing that would improve this Ryder Cup would be if Johnny and Dottie would trot out the C word! That's how bad this one is. There is some real C'ng goin' on and Johnny and Dottie have gone soft on us. 

[Dan King]

Mark Pearce writes:
I'm struggling here and feel really uncomfortable.

I'm betting you are uncomfortable because you know they stopped playing golf.

The great outdoors is messy. You are stuck playing in conditions that are not ideal. I see that is one of the joys of golf. Others see it as far too challenging.

My suggestion to those that dislike the challenge and the messiness is to play their game indoors. I'd prefer the pro tours started playing virtual golf indoors away from the inconsistencies of grass, dirt and the weather. That way they will always have ideal lies and whoever hits the ball best will always win. Leave the outdoor golf courses to people who like to play golf.

Cheers,
Dan King

You have to take this game through so many labyrinth of the mind, past all the traps -- like will my masculinity be threatened if I hit the ball well and still shoot 72?
 --Mac O'Grady

[Andrew Summerell]

Is it the least interesting Ryder Cup in history? 

They are all boring. The only reason they invented the President’s Cup was so the Ryder Cup wouldn’t be the most boring.

[Garland Bayley]

Mark Pearce writes:
I'm struggling here and feel really uncomfortable.

I'm betting you are uncomfortable because you know they stopped playing golf.

The great outdoors is messy. You are stuck playing in conditions that are not ideal. I see that is one of the joys of golf. Others see it as far too challenging.

My suggestion to those that dislike the challenge and the messiness is to play their game indoors. I'd prefer the pro tours started playing virtual golf indoors away from the inconsistencies of grass, dirt and the weather. That way they will always have ideal lies and whoever hits the ball best will always win. Leave the outdoor golf courses to people who like to play golf.

Cheers,
Dan King

You have to take this game through so many labyrinth of the mind, past all the traps -- like will my masculinity be threatened if I hit the ball well and still shoot 72?
 --Mac O'Grady

+1

[Tim Martin]

Matt,

I know Belfry did not have the extreme weather we've had this week.  However, the last couple Ryder Cups there have been dreary at best.  I'm also guessing the Belfry did not have anything resembling firm and fast conditions.

Matt and Adrian,

Lift, clean, and place, quite simply, has no place in the game.  The pros get uneasy when any sort of "luck" is brought into play, even though luck is an integral part of golf.  Furthermore, when a ball lands in a wet fairway, there is no guarantee that the ball will pick up mud.  Even if it does, there are ways to judge how the ball will come off.  Players should not get a perfect lie every time they are in the fairway.  If that's what people think, then we should be playing the game off astroturf.

I've gone out in January thaws in Rochester and played the ball down, no questions asked.  Playing the ball down, even under the muddiest of conditions, ensures that things like "thinking" and "rub of the green" remain essential parts of the game.  Lift, clean and place takes these aspects of the game and throws them in the garbage.

JNC- I admire your purist outlook but I don`t think it is very practical. One of my favorite things is the sign on the pro shop door at Taconic Golf Club which says "No Preferred Lies, We Play Golf Here!". I have played plenty of golf in the winter in all kinds of conditions in New England. We play winter rules. I play the ball down the rest of the year. To say that playing the ball down in Rochester in the winter is some sort of badge of honor is beyond me.

[Garland Bayley]

Is it the least interesting Ryder Cup in history? 

They are all boring. The only reason they invented the President’s Cup was so the Ryder Cup wouldn’t be the most boring.

One would think this means that you find pencil and scorecard golf they usually play week in and week out to be the not boring events. 

[Andrew Summerell]

One would think this means that you find pencil and scorecard golf they usually play week in and week out to be the not boring events. 

Nah! Most of them are pretty boring as well.

[JNC Lyon]

John, Dan,

I'm struggling here and feel really uncomfortable.  I see Matt Ward and Adrian Stiff on one side of an argument and find myself agreeing with them completely.  I'm sorry but an event like the Ryder Cup should not be played with mud on the ball.  I don't like lift, clean and cheat any more than you but in this case it was that or don't play and don't play wasn't an option.

Mark, et al:

You say an event like the Ryder Cup should not be played with mud on the ball.  Then let's play it at a venue that will minimize the amount of mud that the players get on the ball.  Let's improve the venue rather than compromising the integrity of the game.

[Pat Burke]

well Dan, That's why I called it a biased opinion!
played on a GOLF course, I agree.  In a swamp, I don't.
BTW, I did, and do play by whichever rules were in front of me, in spite of my noted preference in certain conditions..

I personally will never agree that constantly hitting tee shots in the fairway, and having virtually no chance to keep the ball in play other than putting it and hoping the mud comes off 40 yards down the fairway (I did this at the Woodlands once! ), before pitching it over a railroad tie bulkheaded green, or over front bunkers, (even if indoors), is golf either.

If I can whangle some runner with crap all over my ball along the ground and get it to a decent spot, fine.  Again, I believe it is a course design/location issue, not an "ease of play" issue.

[Ronald Montesano]

1.  Stewart Cink ate half a sandwich, then handed it off to his caddy who devoured the rest, saliva still fresh.  Now that's affection.

2.  As far as worst Ryder Cup ever, I'm going to go with 1979.  Tom Weiskopf didn't even bother playing, for goodness sake, on that rat trap of a layout at The Greenbrier.  Sheesh.

3.  Did anyone else think what I thought when Garland mentioned "The 'C' Word"?  Garland is great for those moments...so is mistletoe.

4.  JNC, is there such a thing as an Old Lad or a Young Geezer?

5.  Not everyone plays as fast as Dustin Johnson...not everyone is 0-2 and 1-down in his third match...oh wait, Phil is 2-down and double bagel.

6.  Dudes, can you imagine how long they would take if they had to play with the mud on the ball?

7.  Here's a question, since they are in casual water nearly everywhere, can't they just lift, clean and drop out of the brine?  Would that appease the purists?  Or is all water formal to the purist?

8.  Pat Burke, how far is "not very far" for a pro?  Don't be so abashed!

9.  Which shot was better, the Luke Donald shot out of the gunge, over the water and onto the green or the Luke Donald 4-iron on 17?

10.  The Ryder Cup is about the players, not the course, gang.  The course is relevant when it is US that are playing it.  The Ryder Cup is never boring...never!

[Dan King]

Tim Martin writes:
One of my favorite things is the sign on the pro shop door at Taconic Golf Club which says "No Preferred Lies, We Play Golf Here!".

I'm a bit confused. What is it you like about the sign? The font? The shape of the sign? What?

Cheers,
Dan King

I sometimes think that the price of liberty is not so much eternal vigilance as eternal dirt.
 --George Orwell

[Pat Burke]

"Tricks Ohhol>>>"
Roughly 265 in the air (late 90's).  Pretty good per height, but not weight!

[Dan King]

Pat Burke writes:
BTW, I did, and do play by whichever rules were in front of me, in spite of my noted preference in certain conditions..

I'm a fan of yours Pat. I interviewed you many, many years ago when you were on Tour and I worked for GolfWeb. You were always good for some great quotes. I was looking for some old quotes from you, but it seems everything from that period is long gone.

If it is about the course, why not take the game indoors? Other than tradition, what is it about the outdoors that makes the game better? If the pro tours want perfect lies and perfect conditions they will be much more likely to find it away from the messy out of doors.

Cheers,
Dan King

To the illumined man or woman, a clod of dirt, a stone, and gold are the same.
 --Bhagavad Gita

[Ronald Montesano]

Dan King...awesome response...that is such a douchy sign for such a great course.

Pat...I broke one of the all-time rules by inventing my own nickname...I'll get rid of it soon.  265 in air, 15 roll with traditional metals (great phrase, huh?) 280 equates to 295 minimum today...that's long by my standards.

[Tim Martin]

Tim Martin writes:
One of my favorite things is the sign on the pro shop door at Taconic Golf Club which says "No Preferred Lies, We Play Golf Here!".

I'm a bit confused. What is it you like about the sign? The font? The shape of the sign? What?

Cheers,
Dan King

I sometimes think that the price of liberty is not so much eternal vigilance as eternal dirt.
 --George Orwell

What I like about the sign is the message it conveys about the spirit of the game. I was trying to make the distinction between playing it down under normal conditions versus playing it down in Rochester in February out of a plugged lie in a snow bank. Are you still confused?

[JNC Lyon]

Matt,

I know Belfry did not have the extreme weather we've had this week.  However, the last couple Ryder Cups there have been dreary at best.  I'm also guessing the Belfry did not have anything resembling firm and fast conditions.

Matt and Adrian,

Lift, clean, and place, quite simply, has no place in the game.  The pros get uneasy when any sort of "luck" is brought into play, even though luck is an integral part of golf.  Furthermore, when a ball lands in a wet fairway, there is no guarantee that the ball will pick up mud.  Even if it does, there are ways to judge how the ball will come off.  Players should not get a perfect lie every time they are in the fairway.  If that's what people think, then we should be playing the game off astroturf.

I've gone out in January thaws in Rochester and played the ball down, no questions asked.  Playing the ball down, even under the muddiest of conditions, ensures that things like "thinking" and "rub of the green" remain essential parts of the game.  Lift, clean and place takes these aspects of the game and throws them in the garbage.

JNC- I admire your purist outlook but I don`t think it is very practical. One of my favorite things is the sign on the pro shop door at Taconic Golf Club which says "No Preferred Lies, We Play Golf Here!". I have played plenty of golf in the winter in all kinds of conditions in New England. We play winter rules. I play the ball down the rest of the year. To say that playing the ball down in Rochester in the winter is some sort of badge of honor is beyond me.

Tim,

I did not say that it was a badge of honor.  To paraphrase what Bobby Jones said, you should not praise a man for not robbing a bank.  I am merely pointing out that, with the ground as soggy as possible, we still manage to play the ball as it lies.  Surely PGA Tour players could muster up enough decency to do the same.

I am genuinely concerned here about the game and people's view of it.  I always thought this was a website that supported the purists of the game.  Now, use the word "purist" as an insult, as if those who wish to uphold the game's traditions are backwards idiots.  Golf is the greatest game of them all because of its traditions and its etiquette that has survived hundreds of years.  Golfers have developed and agreed upon a certain set of rules that preserved the game's adventure, interaction with nature, and honesty.  Somehow, these traditions have lasted for centuries.  Suddenly, in the last 50 years or so, we have all decided that the game needs to change with the times.  Suddenly, every golfer is entitled to a fair shake and equal opportunity.  Every good shot should produce the same good result, and every bad shot should produce the same bad result.  Before, luck was accepted as part of the game and part of the fun.  A golfer and, more importantly, a man was measured by how well he handled his luck, good or bad.  This is the true test of a man, no?  How he handles the bump in the road that should not have been there.  Now people dismiss luck as silly and a threat to our fair-minded golf utopia.

This change in golf seems to be related to the change in the rest of our society.  Everybody thinks they are entitled to do whatever they want and get whatever they want.  If someone cannot get what they think they deserve, it is considered unfair and a violation of their rights.  In short, people have been consumed with an entitlement mentality.  This entitlement mentality has slowly seeped over to golf.  Stewart Cink is now entitled to make everyone else in his group watch and wait while he eats his sandwich.  Every golfer who hits the fairway is entitled to a perfect lie.  When the weather is not 75 degrees and sunny, every golfer has the right to make adjustments until he can play under the same conditions that he is used to.  Golf, for the first time ever, has begun to change with the rest of the world.  The change has compromised the original spirit of the game.  Golfers are no longer tested to accept what they are given.  Golfers are now entitled to get what they think they deserve.

The world of golf needs to stand up to this change.  Golf should NOT change with the rest of the world.  Golf is an escape from the rest of the world, a return to traditionalism and integrity in a time of unrelenting change.

[Mac Plumart]

Great points!!

[Adrian_Stiff]

The majority just want fairplaying conditions. I lost out in a tournament on the 18th back in the 70s,  it was on a links course, 18 was a very tough drive and I needed a 4 to qualify, I knew I needed a 4 and it was a lot of pressure, I hit a great drive, straight down the middle of the fairway but into a divot, I was 170 out, it was a 6 iron but the lie was that bad I could hardly get a sand iron to it, I could only move the ball 80 yards I took 5 and missed, hardly fair. Its all improved now as fairways are much better conditioned, I dont see why if you hit the fairway you cant clean and place at any time if I am honest,but years ago there was a lot of luck in getting up in two on par 5s, you needed a good lie.
If you made people play out of soggy lies and not get relief you would have even less players play this game. Your plans for bettering the game would bugger it, not placing under wet conditions is a big enjoyment ruiner for so many, even placing with wet conditions is not much fun.
You need to understand some very plain facts;  MOST GOLFERS LIKE CARTS, WATERFOUNTAINS, STRIPED LUSH GRASS, AND A BEER HALF TIME....... who designed it? ....who cares.

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