[Colin Macqueen]

JNCL,
Top notch stuff and I thought I was the last of the great romantics!

Colin

[Mark Pearce]

Mark, et al:

You say an event like the Ryder Cup should not be played with mud on the ball.  Then let's play it at a venue that will minimize the amount of mud that the players get on the ball.  Let's improve the venue rather than compromising the integrity of the game.

And now we are in complete agreement.

[Mark Pearce]

The majority just want fairplaying conditions. I lost out in a tournament on the 18th back in the 70s,  it was on a links course, 18 was a very tough drive and I needed a 4 to qualify, I knew I needed a 4 and it was a lot of pressure, I hit a great drive, straight down the middle of the fairway but into a divot, I was 170 out, it was a 6 iron but the lie was that bad I could hardly get a sand iron to it, I could only move the ball 80 yards I took 5 and missed, hardly fair. Its all improved now as fairways are much better conditioned, I dont see why if you hit the fairway you cant clean and place at any time if I am honest,but years ago there was a lot of luck in getting up in two on par 5s, you needed a good lie.
If you made people play out of soggy lies and not get relief you would have even less players play this game. Your plans for bettering the game would bugger it, not placing under wet conditions is a big enjoyment ruiner for so many, even placing with wet conditions is not much fun.
You need to understand some very plain facts;  MOST GOLFERS LIKE CARTS, WATERFOUNTAINS, STRIPED LUSH GRASS, AND A BEER HALF TIME....... who designed it? ....who cares.

That makes me feel better.  A post I completely disagree with.  And to top it all, use of the word fair.

[JNC Lyon]

The majority just want fairplaying conditions. I lost out in a tournament on the 18th back in the 70s,  it was on a links course, 18 was a very tough drive and I needed a 4 to qualify, I knew I needed a 4 and it was a lot of pressure, I hit a great drive, straight down the middle of the fairway but into a divot, I was 170 out, it was a 6 iron but the lie was that bad I could hardly get a sand iron to it, I could only move the ball 80 yards I took 5 and missed, hardly fair. Its all improved now as fairways are much better conditioned, I dont see why if you hit the fairway you cant clean and place at any time if I am honest,but years ago there was a lot of luck in getting up in two on par 5s, you needed a good lie.
If you made people play out of soggy lies and not get relief you would have even less players play this game. Your plans for bettering the game would bugger it, not placing under wet conditions is a big enjoyment ruiner for so many, even placing with wet conditions is not much fun.
You need to understand some very plain facts;  MOST GOLFERS LIKE CARTS, WATERFOUNTAINS, STRIPED LUSH GRASS, AND A BEER HALF TIME....... who designed it? ....who cares.

Adrian,

Your story is very unfortunate--but it is part of golf.  Remember the 2006 US Open at Winged Foot?  Geoff Ogilvy drove it right down the middle into a sand-filled divot.  What did he do?  He didn't complain that the course was unfair.  He didn't order a sandwich and wait 20 minutes for a ruling.  He accepted the situation, played out of the divot, and eventually made a par and won the championship.  He triumphed over adversity while other, supposedly "better" players folded around him.  That is what golf should be--a test of mental fortitude.  If we lose that in the game, what's the point of even playing golf?

If most golfers like golf carts and water fountains, they have no sense of what golf is and are playing the game for the wrong reasons.  I don't want to see fewer golfers, but I think one problem with "growing the game" is bringing these types of people into the fold that don't understand the traditions and etiquette.  If people want to take time to understand and learn the game's values, that is phenomenal.  They will be better people for it.  Otherwise, they should take their modern, discourteous, and ignorant attitudes elsewhere.

[Mac Plumart]

I think I've got a new GCA hero...JNC LYON!!!!!!  Awesome, awesome, awesome stuff!!!! 

[David_Tepper]

I find all this moaning and whinging about Celtic Manor and longing for the Ryder Cup to be played on a links course rather quaint and charming, kind of like one of those gatherings where people extol the virtues of coal-burning steam railroad engines (or grass court tennis, for that matter).

The simple fact of the matter is that IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

Aside from the considerable amount of money at stake, here is something else to consider: winning the Ryder Cup is a huge priority, especially for the European Tour, given its' desire to see as many of their players compete regularly on the European Tour as possible.

If you were a Euro Tour official would you rather hold the event on one of the courses your tour plays a tournament at each year or a course your players get to compete on once every 5 or 10 years and no more often than most of the American players? Collectively, how many rounds the Euro team has played at Celtic Manor (or Valderama or Gleneagles) over the past several years? From a competitive point of view, does it not make sense to exploit an advantage like that? Why not take advantage of all the local knowledge your team has?            

[Sean_A]

The majority just want fairplaying conditions. I lost out in a tournament on the 18th back in the 70s,  it was on a links course, 18 was a very tough drive and I needed a 4 to qualify, I knew I needed a 4 and it was a lot of pressure, I hit a great drive, straight down the middle of the fairway but into a divot, I was 170 out, it was a 6 iron but the lie was that bad I could hardly get a sand iron to it, I could only move the ball 80 yards I took 5 and missed, hardly fair. Its all improved now as fairways are much better conditioned, I dont see why if you hit the fairway you cant clean and place at any time if I am honest,but years ago there was a lot of luck in getting up in two on par 5s, you needed a good lie.
If you made people play out of soggy lies and not get relief you would have even less players play this game. Your plans for bettering the game would bugger it, not placing under wet conditions is a big enjoyment ruiner for so many, even placing with wet conditions is not much fun.
You need to understand some very plain facts;  MOST GOLFERS LIKE CARTS, WATERFOUNTAINS, STRIPED LUSH GRASS, AND A BEER HALF TIME....... who designed it? ....who cares.

That makes me feel better.  A post I completely disagree with.  And to top it all, use of the word fair.

I would suggest we can replace "fair" with "I don't like it".  Guess what?  I don't like playing from divots, out of soggy lies or wet bunkers, but that has nothing to do with fairness. 

Fair,  impartial,  disinterested,  unprejudiced refer to lack of bias in opinions, judgments, etc. Fair implies the treating of all sides alike, justly and equitably: a fair compromise.  Impartial,  like fair,  implies showing no more favor to one side than another.

Ciao

 

[Adrian_Stiff]

The majority just want fairplaying conditions. I lost out in a tournament on the 18th back in the 70s,  it was on a links course, 18 was a very tough drive and I needed a 4 to qualify, I knew I needed a 4 and it was a lot of pressure, I hit a great drive, straight down the middle of the fairway but into a divot, I was 170 out, it was a 6 iron but the lie was that bad I could hardly get a sand iron to it, I could only move the ball 80 yards I took 5 and missed, hardly fair. Its all improved now as fairways are much better conditioned, I dont see why if you hit the fairway you cant clean and place at any time if I am honest,but years ago there was a lot of luck in getting up in two on par 5s, you needed a good lie.
If you made people play out of soggy lies and not get relief you would have even less players play this game. Your plans for bettering the game would bugger it, not placing under wet conditions is a big enjoyment ruiner for so many, even placing with wet conditions is not much fun.
You need to understand some very plain facts;  MOST GOLFERS LIKE CARTS, WATERFOUNTAINS, STRIPED LUSH GRASS, AND A BEER HALF TIME....... who designed it? ....who cares.

That makes me feel better.  A post I completely disagree with.  And to top it all, use of the word fair.

The thing about progression in life is to make things FAIR. Equality and fair chance, fair education, fair hospital treatment, sport seeks better conditions why should golf look to go backwards. Why shoud you be able to repair a pitchmark on your line but not move your ball out of a divot, but you can move your ball out of an animal scrape. What bit on my post could you possibly disagree with. I despair with this site sometimes at the narrow minded opinions and lack of golf education.

[JNC Lyon]

The majority just want fairplaying conditions. I lost out in a tournament on the 18th back in the 70s,  it was on a links course, 18 was a very tough drive and I needed a 4 to qualify, I knew I needed a 4 and it was a lot of pressure, I hit a great drive, straight down the middle of the fairway but into a divot, I was 170 out, it was a 6 iron but the lie was that bad I could hardly get a sand iron to it, I could only move the ball 80 yards I took 5 and missed, hardly fair. Its all improved now as fairways are much better conditioned, I dont see why if you hit the fairway you cant clean and place at any time if I am honest,but years ago there was a lot of luck in getting up in two on par 5s, you needed a good lie.
If you made people play out of soggy lies and not get relief you would have even less players play this game. Your plans for bettering the game would bugger it, not placing under wet conditions is a big enjoyment ruiner for so many, even placing with wet conditions is not much fun.
You need to understand some very plain facts;  MOST GOLFERS LIKE CARTS, WATERFOUNTAINS, STRIPED LUSH GRASS, AND A BEER HALF TIME....... who designed it? ....who cares.

That makes me feel better.  A post I completely disagree with.  And to top it all, use of the word fair.

The thing about progression in life is to make things FAIR. Equality and fair chance, fair education, fair hospital treatment, sport seeks better conditions why should golf look to go backwards. Why shoud you be able to repair a pitchmark on your line but not move your ball out of a divot, but you can move your ball out of an animal scrape. What bit on my post could you possibly disagree with. I despair with this site sometimes at the narrow minded opinions and lack of golf education.

Why should golf go backwards?  Maybe because "fairness" is not something we should strive for.  A person's toughness, wisdom and integrity is measured by how they handled unfairness.  If you are not taking a risk and battling the odds, then you are not really accomplishing anything.  The current tendency is to coddle everybody and shepherd them through life, telling them everything will be easy.  Not every person deserves the same treatment.  Not every action deserves the same result.  Fairness is one of the politically correct terms that ignores personal growth and values.  Golf used to preserve those things, but now I am not so sure.

[Ulrich Mayring]

The lack of fairness as regards natural conditions coupled with the extreme fairness as regards self-policing make golf a different sport from any other and provide much of its character-building qualities. There is no difference between a divot and a gust of wind - both happen and need to be contended with. Is it fair to hit a perfect shot, but have it deflected off the green into a dismal lie by the flagstick? No, it's not. It was a great shot and it got severely punished. Is it fair if your opponent shanks one into the hole? Hardly. But it is golf. And if you can deal with that, you're a golfer.

Ulrich

[Adrian_Stiff]

Well I think that golf should be made a fair as possible. The opposite of fairness would be unfairness or lottery. The Golf World in the last 40 years have moved more and more towards better conditions,surely better conditions would equal fairness. There are other methods to test the spirit and will without a golfer possibly having a life changing situation because he lost a major championship because his ball plugged in the middle of the fairway with a perfect drive. I dont agree that cleaning and placing a ball is such a horror to the game of golf. There is plenty in most courses to seperate the best from the rest without bringing more luck into it.

[Bart Bradley]

JNC Lyon:

While I am enjoying your rap, Golf is not the Ryder Cup.  Golf is when I go to the course with my son and we have a match.  Golf is when a group of friends meet at Mountain Ridge and enjoy fellowship and fun.  Golf is playing with someone you barely know, having a great day, and making a new friend for life.  Golf is a still great, it is not going backwards.  

The Ryder Cup is Disneyworld.  It is entertainment.  It is not real.  It is not GOLF.

Bart

[Tim Martin]

Matt,

I know Belfry did not have the extreme weather we've had this week.  However, the last couple Ryder Cups there have been dreary at best.  I'm also guessing the Belfry did not have anything resembling firm and fast conditions.

Matt and Adrian,

Lift, clean, and place, quite simply, has no place in the game.  The pros get uneasy when any sort of "luck" is brought into play, even though luck is an integral part of golf.  Furthermore, when a ball lands in a wet fairway, there is no guarantee that the ball will pick up mud.  Even if it does, there are ways to judge how the ball will come off.  Players should not get a perfect lie every time they are in the fairway.  If that's what people think, then we should be playing the game off astroturf.

I've gone out in January thaws in Rochester and played the ball down, no questions asked.  Playing the ball down, even under the muddiest of conditions, ensures that things like "thinking" and "rub of the green" remain essential parts of the game.  Lift, clean and place takes these aspects of the game and throws them in the garbage.

JNC- I admire your purist outlook but I don`t think it is very practical. One of my favorite things is the sign on the pro shop door at Taconic Golf Club which says "No Preferred Lies, We Play Golf Here!". I have played plenty of golf in the winter in all kinds of conditions in New England. We play winter rules. I play the ball down the rest of the year. To say that playing the ball down in Rochester in the winter is some sort of badge of honor is beyond me.

Tim,

I did not say that it was a badge of honor.  To paraphrase what Bobby Jones said, you should not praise a man for not robbing a bank.  I am merely pointing out that, with the ground as soggy as possible, we still manage to play the ball as it lies.  Surely PGA Tour players could muster up enough decency to do the same.

I am genuinely concerned here about the game and people's view of it.  I always thought this was a website that supported the purists of the game.  Now, use the word "purist" as an insult, as if those who wish to uphold the game's traditions are backwards idiots.  Golf is the greatest game of them all because of its traditions and its etiquette that has survived hundreds of years.  Golfers have developed and agreed upon a certain set of rules that preserved the game's adventure, interaction with nature, and honesty.  Somehow, these traditions have lasted for centuries.  Suddenly, in the last 50 years or so, we have all decided that the game needs to change with the times.  Suddenly, every golfer is entitled to a fair shake and equal opportunity.  Every good shot should produce the same good result, and every bad shot should produce the same bad result.  Before, luck was accepted as part of the game and part of the fun.  A golfer and, more importantly, a man was measured by how well he handled his luck, good or bad.  This is the true test of a man, no?  How he handles the bump in the road that should not have been there.  Now people dismiss luck as silly and a threat to our fair-minded golf utopia.

This change in golf seems to be related to the change in the rest of our society.  Everybody thinks they are entitled to do whatever they want and get whatever they want.  If someone cannot get what they think they deserve, it is considered unfair and a violation of their rights.  In short, people have been consumed with an entitlement mentality.  This entitlement mentality has slowly seeped over to golf.  Stewart Cink is now entitled to make everyone else in his group watch and wait while he eats his sandwich.  Every golfer who hits the fairway is entitled to a perfect lie.  When the weather is not 75 degrees and sunny, every golfer has the right to make adjustments until he can play under the same conditions that he is used to.  Golf, for the first time ever, has begun to change with the rest of the world.  The change has compromised the original spirit of the game.  Golfers are no longer tested to accept what they are given.  Golfers are now entitled to get what they think they deserve.

The world of golf needs to stand up to this change.  Golf should NOT change with the rest of the world.  Golf is an escape from the rest of the world, a return to traditionalism and integrity in a time of unrelenting change.

JNC-If you reread my posts you will see that I most certainly did not use the word purist as an insult. As far as someone feeling that they did not get what they deserve you should be blaming the rules makers and not the participants at the Ryder Cup. Your post reminds me a bit of Otter in Animal House representing Delta House at the disciplinary hearing. Don`t you think you are going a bit too far when comparing world change to someone taking a preferred lie in Rochester in February? If the Ryder Cup is ruined for you because torrential rain has caused lift, clean, and place then flip on the NFL tomorrow and don`t torture yourself.  

[Adrian_Stiff]

The lack of fairness as regards natural conditions coupled with the extreme fairness as regards self-policing make golf a different sport from any other and provide much of its character-building qualities. There is no difference between a divot and a gust of wind - both happen and need to be contended with. Is it fair to hit a perfect shot, but have it deflected off the green into a dismal lie by the flagstick? No, it's not. It was a great shot and it got severely punished. Is it fair if your opponent shanks one into the hole? Hardly. But it is golf. And if you can deal with that, you're a golfer.

Ulrich

You cant do anything about wind Ulrich, but you could do something about a divot. The rules of golf have continued to move towards fairness for a long time. Is there anyone here that would like to see a return of the stymie?

[Mac Plumart]

I like the stymie.

[Carl Nichols]

You guys don't really mean that they should play it down all the time, or do you?  What about casual water, cart paths, GUR, etc.?  Are those ok but lift-clean-and-place isn't?  If so, what's the principled distinction between, say, casual water and lift-clean-and-place?  I've had a lot of lies in casual water that I thought I could play better than a ball with a ton of mud.

[Scott Warren]

The thing about progression in life is to make things FAIR. Equality and fair chance, fair education, fair hospital treatment, sport seeks better conditions why should golf look to go backwards. Why shoud you be able to repair a pitchmark on your line but not move your ball out of a divot, but you can move your ball out of an animal scrape.

So during the repair/growth process, when does a divot cease being a divot and just become part of the fairway?

Comparing golf to education and heathcare as regards fairness? I can't see the link.

What bit on my post could you possibly disagree with. I despair with this site sometimes at the narrow minded opinions and lack of golf education.

What were you saying about narrowmindedness?

[Adrian_Stiff]

I like the stymie.

I thought you might Mac. I think the old match play rule about being about to leave your opponents ball was a good one.

[Mac Plumart]

 

[Sean_A]

The lack of fairness as regards natural conditions coupled with the extreme fairness as regards self-policing make golf a different sport from any other and provide much of its character-building qualities. There is no difference between a divot and a gust of wind - both happen and need to be contended with. Is it fair to hit a perfect shot, but have it deflected off the green into a dismal lie by the flagstick? No, it's not. It was a great shot and it got severely punished. Is it fair if your opponent shanks one into the hole? Hardly. But it is golf. And if you can deal with that, you're a golfer.

Ulrich

You cant do anything about wind Ulrich, but you could do something about a divot. The rules of golf have continued to move towards fairness for a long time. Is there anyone here that would like to see a return of the stymie?

Adrian

Why do you insist on refering to your likes and dislikes about the rules as an issue of fairness?  Do you know what the word fair means?  

Carl

Not me.  I am all for free drops when there are extenuating circumstances to do with the golf course.  I don't see any particuar value in hitting out of casual water, off a cart path, from a plugged lie etc.  I play for fun and as I don't mind the odd bit of harsh application of the rules, I don't really want to experience it time and again during a round especially if I am hitting faireways and greens. 

Ciao

[Tim Martin]

You guys don't really mean that they should play it down all the time, or do you?  What about casual water, cart paths, GUR, etc.?  Are those ok but lift-clean-and-place isn't?  If so, what's the principled distinction between, say, casual water and lift-clean-and-place?  I've had a lot of lies in casual water that I thought I could play better than a ball with a ton of mud.

Carl-You better read JNC`s posts because he wants you to play it down everywhere, every day and in the dark and if you don`t you have committed a grave injustice against mankind and not only compromised your own integrity but also the integrity of the golf kingdom.

[Mac Plumart]

This thread is great.   

[Carl Nichols]

Sean-
Are really wet fairways--that, let's assume, result in mud on the ball fairly frequently--"extenuating circumstances"?

[Dan King]

Adrian_Sift writes:
You cant do anything about wind Ulrich,

Sure you can. Play your silly hand/club game indoors.

The rules of golf have continued to move towards fairness for a long time.

I was thinking about this. In the last half century is there a single rule that gets the game closer to the essence of the game? Almost every rule added over the years have responded to Adrian's lowest common denominator.

Is there anyone here that would like to see a return of the stymie?

Yes.

Carl Nichols writes:
You guys don't really mean that they should play it down all the time, or do you

I can't speak for others, but I'm saying the game consists of keeping your bluidy hands off the golf ball.

Consensions have been made because of card and pencil golf, but we need to keep those at a minimum. Every time the ruling bodies have added a rule to allow more touching they have taken a way a bit of golf's spirit.

Cheers,
Dan King

“Life is hard. Then you die. Then they throw dirt in your face. Then the worms eat you. Be grateful it happens in that order.
 --David Gerrold

 

[JNC Lyon]

Bart,

I agree with you.  However, I think problems arise from the fact that the Ryder Cup is now a fantasy land.  The Ryder Cup was once real golf, and now it is not.  That, in and of itself, is a problem.  Second, many people still believe that the Ryder Cup is real golf, and it sets a bad example for the rest of the golf world.  I applaud you for your preservation of the game.  However, we cannot just ignore the Ryder Cup and its impact.

Tim,

My "purist as an insult" comment was not aimed just at you.  There are several instances where posters on here have criticized my purist, traditionalist outlook.

The rule-makers and the participants are both to blame.  The rule-makers allowed LCP because the participants would have begun shrieking in agony if they had not.  After all, since we're not paying them to play, we have to do whatever they want!

Golf has been the great preserver of tradition, and when start ignoring these traditions because we are "entitled" to a fair shake, golf becomes unimportant.  It is the game's traditions and values that make it relevant to the rest of the world.  Taking a preferred lie means eschewing the game's values and traditions that make it so vital.  You can call it cliche if you want, but it is becoming less so in the modern world.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()