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Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ryder Cup Is Not About The Course.
« Reply #75 on: October 05, 2010, 06:43:52 PM »
I spoke to a few guys today who were present at Celtic Manor from early in the week and the tale is one of continuous heavy rain.

Having heard from people who were on the ground for that duration, it really does sound like the course stood up well to what nature threw at it.

As for this "a links wouldn't have flooded" nonsense. It's just that, nonsense.

Here's one from St Andrews on July 15 this year.


Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ryder Cup Is Not About The Course.
« Reply #76 on: October 05, 2010, 06:45:46 PM »
Garland, you are making pointless arguments.

The amount of rain coming down was substantial. There may not have been as much puddles, but it would have been almost impossible to hit putts of some distance because of the moisture on the surface. There is no tournament GB&I or otherwise that would have allowed playing in that condition.

I don't care how great the course drains, if the weather is foul enough, they will stop playing. Why is that so hard to understand?

Most of the courses in east coast went through some very difficult conditions this year. We have had many threads about dead greens. Weather is a fickle thing. To blame the tournament for weather is like blaming God for the rush hour traffic and equally pointless.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ryder Cup Is Not About The Course.
« Reply #77 on: October 05, 2010, 06:53:51 PM »
I spoke to a few guys today who were present at Celtic Manor from early in the week and the tale is one of continuous heavy rain.

Having heard from people who were on the ground for that duration, it really does sound like the course stood up well to what nature threw at it.

As for this "a links wouldn't have flooded" nonsense. It's just that, nonsense.

Here's one from St Andrews on July 15 this year.


Scott-That picture of TOC should be sufficient to close out the argument that a links was the silver bullet.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ryder Cup Is Not About The Course.
« Reply #78 on: October 05, 2010, 06:55:01 PM »
Scott W. -

Speaking of a links course flooding, check out this video of the Struie course at Dornoch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uG07LRaX8g

DT

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ryder Cup Is Not About The Course.
« Reply #79 on: October 05, 2010, 06:58:17 PM »
Garland, you are making pointless arguments.

The amount of rain coming down was substantial. There may not have been as much puddles, but it would have been almost impossible to hit putts of some distance because of the moisture on the surface. There is no tournament GB&I or otherwise that would have allowed playing in that condition.

I don't care how great the course drains, if the weather is foul enough, they will stop playing. Why is that so hard to understand?

Most of the courses in east coast went through some very difficult conditions this year. We have had many threads about dead greens. Weather is a fickle thing. To blame the tournament for weather is like blaming God for the rush hour traffic and equally pointless.

Why is it so hard to understand that play went on at nearby courses?
Why is it so hard to understand that the soils at Celtic Manor made for a disaster ready to happen? I read multiple reports of the total unsuitability of the soils there.
Why is it so hard to understand that even if play would have been stopped at a links course, the stoppage would have been measured in minutes instead of hours?
How does conditions at courses in the NE US pertain when conditions at Royal Porthcawl don't seem to in your opinion?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ryder Cup Is Not About The Course.
« Reply #80 on: October 05, 2010, 07:02:47 PM »
I spoke to a few guys today who were present at Celtic Manor from early in the week and the tale is one of continuous heavy rain.

Having heard from people who were on the ground for that duration, it really does sound like the course stood up well to what nature threw at it.

As for this "a links wouldn't have flooded" nonsense. It's just that, nonsense.

Here's one from St Andrews on July 15 this year.



Nice picture Scott. Thanks for proving my point!

Did the event at St. Andrews finish at the scheduled time with the full audience in attendance world wide via broadcast?
Did the event at Celtic Manor finish at the scheduled time ...

I rest my case.
 ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ryder Cup Is Not About The Course.
« Reply #81 on: October 05, 2010, 07:08:42 PM »
Why is it so hard to understand that play went on at nearby courses?

So what? You should know as well as anyone that micro-weather is a fickle thing. It can be raining cats & dogs here in my backyard but be perfectly dry just below the convergence zone only about 15 miles away.

Also, just because people like TB is out playing does not mean that the weather is suitable for tournament play.

As I said before, this is pointless.

Why is it so hard to understand that the soils at Celtic Manor made for a disaster ready to happen? I read multiple reports of the total unsuitability of the soils there.

Show me ONE report that says CM is a "disaster ready to happen" by any golf course architect or super intendant who have worked on the course or are intimately familiar with the soil there. Some random Internet ramblings do not count. I can give you multiple posts about how 9/11 was staged on the Internet. That does not make the claim any more valid than what you are saying.

If it was so bad how the hell did they resume play within hours after the rain?

Pointless.

Why is it so hard to understand that even if play would have been stopped at a links course, the stoppage would have been measured in minutes instead of hours?

Did you even look at the picture above? Do you think they cleaned that up in minutes? Do you think they would be working like that while it was STILL RAINING LIKE IT DID ALL DAY DURING THE RYDER CUP???

Pointless.

How does conditions at courses in the NE US pertain when conditions at Royal Porthcawl don't seem to in your opinion?

Because it demonstrates that weather (golf) disasters can happen ANYWHERE and usually cannot be foreseen. That is a point that you need to understand.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 07:10:33 PM by Richard Choi »

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ryder Cup Is Not About The Course.
« Reply #82 on: October 05, 2010, 07:13:10 PM »
Nice picture Scott. Thanks for proving my point!

Did the event at St. Andrews finish at the scheduled time with the full audience in attendance world wide via broadcast?
Did the event at Celtic Manor finish at the scheduled time ...

I rest my case.
 ;D

How long did it rain at St Andrews? How long did it rain at Celtic Manor?

How could you rest a case without even the very basic and most pertinent information?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ryder Cup Is Not About The Course.
« Reply #83 on: October 05, 2010, 07:30:07 PM »
Nice picture Scott. Thanks for proving my point!

Did the event at St. Andrews finish at the scheduled time with the full audience in attendance world wide via broadcast?
Did the event at Celtic Manor finish at the scheduled time ...

I rest my case.
 ;D

How long did it rain at St Andrews? How long did it rain at Celtic Manor?

How could you rest a case without even the very basic and most pertinent information?

The smiley face was to indicate I was not entirely serious on that one.

I would not bring up Royal Porthcawl if it was not raining there. The golf news media reported that there was equitable rain there when they reported they were still playing there. I would assume that tournament golf will experience some stoppages that recreational golf would not. However, the pro shop at Royal Porthcawl reported essentially no one was stopping play. I would think that some recreational golfers would toss it in as you did at Bandon if the course or weather conditions became too extreme.

Your comparison to 9/11 garbage on the internet is laughable.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ryder Cup Is Not About The Course.
« Reply #84 on: October 06, 2010, 03:32:05 AM »
Garland,

One thing we know, because many people made a point of it after the architect spoke to us at BUDA is that a VAST amount was spent on drainage at CM.  Indeed, the course drained remakably well.  If you saw pictures of it on Sunday morning you would be astonished that play was possible on Sunday afternoon.  I imagine it drained about as well as ANY inland course in the UK would.

As to the fact that Porthcawl was in play on the Friday (I don't believe anyone has confirmed its status on the Sunday morning), so what?  Did they have 40,000 spectators on site, with the attendant health and safety issues?  Do we know whether it was really playable, that is that the greens and fairways were substantially free of standing water, or whether it was merely playable for a few members playing in social matches, where standing water on the greens could be ignored?

There's a lot of nonsense being talked on this thread (and other RC threads) by people presenting conjecture as fact and half-truth as truth.  The only relevant facts are that CM was not playable on Friday afternoon or Sunday morning because of a Biblical volume of water falling from the sky.  remarkably, given how wet it was, it was fit on Saturday and Sunday afternoon and all day Monday.  The crowds appeared good on Monday and I know many of my colleagues got to watch it, so I suspect audiences, though obviously down on the Sunday were reasonable on the Monday.  In addition the amount of national press coverage it got over here on  the Monday evening was pretty substantial.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ryder Cup Is Not About The Course.
« Reply #85 on: October 06, 2010, 03:46:48 AM »
JNC-

Not sure you were aware of this, but it sure rained pretty hard in Wales the last few days.  As Dan King likes to point out, we play golf outdoors so the conditions are bound to be a bit soggy.  The fact the course held out is remarkable, but not surprising as the folks that built it have a decent idea of the weather patterns out that way. 
...

"The course held out"?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Did you not notice that play was held up, delayed, postponed, etc.?????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Did you not notice that every golf news media of any sort worth it's salt reported, that while they couldn't play at Celtic Manor, play was not stopped at nearby links courses where the courses actually did hold up. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????

This was the worst Ryder Cup ever. Why? Because a golf competition is a drama that plays out live. There is only one performance of that drama, and because the course did not hold up, that performance happened without the audience that had been scheduled for it on Sunday morning. Instead it played out while while a significant portion of the constituents of one of the parties to that drama was sleeping. Or, even if some of those constituents got up early to watch the drama play out, couldn't watch, because the medium was online through PGA.com, which was never intended to carry such a load, and so failed to deliver.

When performances on Broadway fail by that much in attaining their audience, they are canceled.
The Ryder Cup of 2010, will go down as one of the most forgettable, as most won't even have seen it to even been in the position of forgetting it.

Ryder Cup 2010. The unseen wonder in Wales. Forget about it!

Garland could I get your views on The Open Championship 2010 where play was held up because of the weather?  Perhaps you think links courses that hold important tournaments shouldn’t be in such windy locations? The most forgettable?

It’s OK we’ve heard your (erm) thoughts on this, please stop repeating them in longer and longer posts (on line shouting?),  now please go and take a nap.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ryder Cup Is Not About The Course.
« Reply #86 on: October 06, 2010, 04:00:22 AM »
Garland, you are making pointless arguments.

The amount of rain coming down was substantial. There may not have been as much puddles, but it would have been almost impossible to hit putts of some distance because of the moisture on the surface. There is no tournament GB&I or otherwise that would have allowed playing in that condition.

I don't care how great the course drains, if the weather is foul enough, they will stop playing. Why is that so hard to understand?

Most of the courses in east coast went through some very difficult conditions this year. We have had many threads about dead greens. Weather is a fickle thing. To blame the tournament for weather is like blaming God for the rush hour traffic and equally pointless.

Richard

The difference is a links can resume play much quicker especially with these mega crews working on them.  This is why I stated many posts back that Porthcawl likely would have closed down, but play would have been completed that day.  I have no idea why folks could even think of challenging this notion because it is fact - links drain far better than inland courses no matter how much is spent on drainage.  We also mustn't forget that essentially, CM should have been closed while play was on because winter rules were in effect.  The course didn't alllow for proper  playing conditions; they were marginal at best and that is a fact.  All that said, it doesn't follow that because of the conditions and delayed finish that this was the worst RC ever.  Far from it.  The damn thing came down to the last match on the 17th green - I enjoyed it. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Ryder Cup Is Not About The Course.
« Reply #87 on: October 06, 2010, 07:24:25 AM »

See told you, no earth worms, lots of surface water ;)

Where Island Greens an early prediction of the floods to come, if so suggest we remove them ASAP ::)

Man cannot play Golf (or its many variations) upon the Water :'(

Set up thine alter to the glory of the humble earth worm or build your courses on Land Fit for Purpose :P

Otherwise just stop moaning, of course it involves the courses otherwise there would be no Ryder Cup - "Simplees" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSIKy3-mnLk&feature=related

Melvyn

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