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Michael Whitaker

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Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« on: October 01, 2010, 10:44:47 AM »
Golf developers may believe they need 7,200 yard long courses to attract good players, but back tees are rarely used and just add to the cost of construction and maintenance according to a panel of industry experts..

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Shorter-courses-are-more-popular/1890/Default.aspx
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2010, 10:50:50 AM »

Golf developers may believe they need 7,200 yard long courses to attract good players, but back tees are rarely used and just add to the cost of construction and maintenance according to a panel of industry experts..

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Shorter-courses-are-more-popular/1890/Default.aspx

But, you still have to have those back tees, whether it be for the scorecards, egos or advertising.

I enjoyed playing the back tees at ANGC when I first played it, but now, at 7,400+, I have no interest in those tees, that's too long for me.

As courses are being lengthened for events, I think most golfers are begining to understand that the "new" back tees are beyond their ability and that they're not up to the challenge, except for Shivas and Matt Ward that is ;D

"sporty" courses seem to be gaining in appeal



Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2010, 11:08:37 AM »
I think KBM's new course in Bucks County, PA, if and when completed, will only be around 6100y from the back tees:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39043.msg901690/topicseen/
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tim Martin

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2010, 11:31:00 AM »

Golf developers may believe they need 7,200 yard long courses to attract good players, but back tees are rarely used and just add to the cost of construction and maintenance according to a panel of industry experts..

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Shorter-courses-are-more-popular/1890/Default.aspx

But, you still have to have those back tees, whether it be for the scorecards, egos or advertising.

I enjoyed playing the back tees at ANGC when I first played it, but now, at 7,400+, I have no interest in those tees, that's too long for me.

As courses are being lengthened for events, I think most golfers are begining to understand that the "new" back tees are beyond their ability and that they're not up to the challenge, except for Shivas and Matt Ward that is ;D

"sporty" courses seem to be gaining in appeal



Pat- Would you say that the "sporty" designation usually carries a max yardage of no more than 6400? There is certainly no shortage of classic courses that are between 6000 and 6400 that are wonderful and challenging. It is great to play these and feel that you are not compromising the architect`s true intent of the way the hole was meant to be played by moving too far forward.

Jim Sweeney

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2010, 02:57:30 PM »
Any tees stretching over 6800 yards should be played with permission only. 6800 is plenty for anyone, even those 15 handicappers who can hit it 280+.

The max for women should be much shorter, but since I am not one, I will not proffer an opinion on what it should be (even if I had one.)
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Bill_Yates

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2010, 03:19:20 PM »
Let me quote Alice Dye in an attempt to understand why shorter courses are more popular.

Alice asks, "Who wants to hit two woods and a wedge to every hole?"

Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2010, 03:31:08 PM »
Tim Martin,

I was thinking that any course under 6,700 would be in the "sporty" category, it could be 6,400, 6,500 or 6.600 depending on the course.

Tim Martin

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2010, 03:34:54 PM »
Let me quote Alice Dye in an attempt to understand why shorter courses are more popular.

Alice asks, "Who wants to hit two woods and a wedge to every hole?"



The bulk of the amateur golf population requires a bag full of woods and north of four hours to play if the course is set up in excess of 6500 yards. The macho aspect of golf makes a certain segment consistently play the wrong tees and not pull enough club. The mentality that "we are going to get our money`s worth and play the back tees"  makes for a less enjoyable experience for the player and all players in the groups behind.

Jud_T

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2010, 03:36:06 PM »
I have a feeling that given the belt-tightening going on everywhere that those sporty 6500 yard courses that cost <$50 to play have a  tee sheet with a lot more names on it than those 7000 yarders costing >$80.  
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chris Buie

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2010, 04:18:51 PM »
Quote
Let me quote Alice Dye in an attempt to understand why shorter courses are more popular.
Alice asks, "Who wants to hit two woods and a wedge to every hole?
"

Alice Dye advocating a course that is not difficult?  I thought Pete and Alice believed that tough was the way to go.
Is my perception incorrect?  The only ones I've seen were quite difficult.


Pete Lavallee

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2010, 04:38:11 PM »
Chris,

Alice has been very influential in setting the forward tees at the correct distance to allow women the same clubs into the greens that the average male will play. The average lady hits her driver 140 yards, while the avergae man 200 yards. From those figures the forward tee needs at least a 60 yard head start and then another 20-30 on top of that to even the game up; the 20 yards they get on most classic course lead to a lot of wood, wood, wedge.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Bill_Yates

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2010, 04:54:40 PM »
Tim,
You nailed it!  8)

Chris,
You fell into the trap.  :'(  

Alice's point is that we are not talking about difficulty (making the course easier), we are talking about length.  She is not advocating removing obstacles, in fact the opposite is true. She is advocating bringing obstacles into play.  When greens, bunkers and water hazards are all reachable, the player becomes more engaged due to more frequent success overcoming those obstacles, the game becomes more exciting and the course more popular.

As Tim alluded, Alice simply wants players to choose the tees that are the best for their game.  Therefore, every course could become a more popular "shorter course."

Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

Chris Buie

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2010, 07:16:12 PM »
Bill, I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of what Mrs. Dye is saying. 
Got to run right now but I'll comment on it later...

Jay Cox

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2010, 07:48:20 PM »
Any tees stretching over 6800 yards should be played with permission only. 6800 is plenty for anyone, even those 15 handicappers who can hit it 280+.

If a guy hits a driver 300, hits with some consistency, and is a 15 because his short game stinks, is he really going to (a) have more fun or (b) play appreciably faster if he plays a course from 6700 yard tees instead of 7000 yard tees?

This shouldn't be about "permission."  It should be about convincing people that there is no honor in slogging through a golf course at a length that isn't appropriate or manageable for their games, and giving them the options they need to play the course that's best for them.  That depends on ensuring that forward sets of tees are well-planned and give the player a comparably fulfilling experience to that of a longer hitter playing from the back tees (if not necessarily the same experience on each hole, a goal that just doesn't seem possible for the majority of holes). 

That's not to say that it wouldn't be good for the game if more courses topped out at 6000-6500 yards.  One of the biggest problem for a long hitter -- say, my hypothetical 15 'capper -- playing middle tees is that he very rarely gets to play a very long hole, because the longest par 3s, par 4s, and par 5s tend to be the holes that have the greatest differences between tee positions.  Anecdotally, it seems like shorter courses have a much greater variety of hole lengths than the middle tees of longer courses, where the total length is the same.

Mike_Young

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2010, 09:17:31 PM »
Yep...industry experts....it is amazing how they change when their niche in the market goes away...let's see...in the initial stages they would not touch a daily fee then they promoted upscale daily fee courses....then they went for the gree/environmental courses...them recently they are going to tell us how to build more affordable courses...hmmm...what makes them an expert on that?....and NOW they have decided shorted will work....whatever they think will sell.... ;D   Thje real experts are the little guys in the small towns that have been doing such for years and being ridiculed by the very "experts" that are now trying to do what they have been doing ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jim Nugent

Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2010, 10:16:46 PM »

If a guy hits a driver 300, hits with some consistency, and is a 15 because his short game stinks, ...

Does that happen? 

Sean_A

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2010, 02:39:09 AM »

If a guy hits a driver 300, hits with some consistency, and is a 15 because his short game stinks, ...

Does that happen? 

There are reasons why most 15s are 15s.  I am willing to wager that most of the 15s who want to step back to the tips have driving as one of their problem areas - no matter how far they can hit it.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2010, 06:46:18 AM »

If a guy hits a driver 300, hits with some consistency, and is a 15 because his short game stinks, ...

Does that happen? 

I don't think it does.  I play a lot of golf, and I know some guys who can hit it 300.  None of them are 15's.  I also know a lot of 15's, and none of them can come close to 300.  To hit a golf ball 300 yds. you have got to be doing a LOT of things right, and you have to have spent a LOT of time and money on the game, IMO.  Those guys might be 5's because of other issues, but not 15's.

"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2010, 06:52:26 AM »
I left a club 14 months ago after 15 yrs. that was 6100 from the tips.  I now belong to a club that is 7050 from the tips.  Consequently, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this over the last year.

Personal feeling is that anything over 6800 is just not much fun, even for low handicappers that can hit the ball a long way.  And really, for most of us, 6600 is more like it.  The number of people who can play good golf at a decent pace at 7000 yds. is small indeed, and those people can have a good test at much shorter yardages.

"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2010, 07:52:35 AM »

I am a great supporter of the shorter course on the basis that the equipment is pro rata with the said lengths. Hence my wish to see not just ball roll back but clubs too.

I do not however see any conflict with the quality or the enjoyment of the game as long as the equipment is correct. My support may be down to many reasons but I suppose that to the forefront would be my love of Links Golf and the necessity of playing the course based upon the relevant weather conditions (– it must be one of the prime tests and enjoyment factors in golf).

My outlook on golf seems to differ greatly with those who love to prove their Nethanderal masculinity. Golf to me is not about hitting the ball as far as I can but of navigating a course which should have been designed to treat and push my skills as well as give option of an enjoyable game with friends. Why would anyone who enjoys golf want to fly over the course untested just to brag that I hit over 300 yards on X, Y & Z holes – to me your game must be rather boring and you really are not into Golf just self-adulation. Perhaps that’s why I come down on the penal design because strategic today means ’ops I seem to have forgotten the long hitters giving them a free run until they reach the Greens’.

Hitting the long ball is not a sign of ones skill. Look at the past few Opens when the weather turned bad and the wind and rain hit the courses, all the younger longer hitter suddenly slipped down the Leaders Board letting the likes of Norman and Watson take pride of place. What happened to the long hitters, where was their skill, clearly they did not have what the older players had - skill on all conditions gained by testing themselves.

How many times does the guy closest to the Green after a Tee shot wins the Hole? So what does it prove to be able to hit a long ball?

As for skill and enjoyment how many have used Hickory clubs and either a gutty or Haskell ball and compared the round with modern equipment. Out of those who have, was it
a)   Just as enjoyable as using modern equipment
b)   More enjoyable
c)   Less enjoyable
d)   Far more enjoyable and satisfying
e)   Never thought of hitting a long ball       
The added benefit of a shorter course is the ability to have two rounds, which in my humble opinion is the best way to experience a previously un-played course.

What is the point of having a big whatever if you cannot rise to the skill of navigating the undulations and generation a deep satisfying experience  Skill over brute force always wins out in the end.

Again I suppose it’s down to why you play golf but do not forget that many of our great courses were designed for the Hickory shafted club. Some are nearly in danger of becoming ‘Pitch N’ Putt Courses’, is this the legacy you long hitters and course designs seek for future generations – ultimately annihilation of many of our great designs. So its great news to see that some common sense still prevails at the grass roots level.   

Melvyn

Jay Cox

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2010, 09:29:26 AM »

If a guy hits a driver 300, hits with some consistency, and is a 15 because his short game stinks, ...

Does that happen? 

I don't know of any 15s who can drive like a tour pro.  But I know of plenty who will hit half the fairways hitting it a long way, hit a few so-so and a few "reload" drives in a round, hit some okay iron shots, and shoot in the mid-80s because they bogey almost every hole where they miss the green. 

But perhaps I just have a biased sampling because I know a lot of people who used to be very good players and now hardly play because of work / kids / etc. 

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2010, 12:14:04 PM »
Melvyn - Just because a course has a set of tees at 7000+ yards does not mean one has to play from there. And, just because there are modern balls and clubs available it does not mean that one must use them. No one is forced to use modern equipment. We are all free to play the course we choose with the equipment we prefer... whatever provides one with the most enjoyment, I say. If you detest modern course lengths and equipment then just play from forward tees with hickory shafted clubs... as many on this site enjoy doing.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2010, 01:30:37 PM »

Michael

Where did I say that I detest modern equipment, I thought I asked some questions and also stated that its down to why you play golf

Melvyn

Chris Flamion

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2010, 04:05:34 PM »
I played a course this summer who had a set of tees back at 7100+ yards.  They weren't back there, it was perfect.  I played the course at 6600 and it was very enjoyable.  I have to believe that if everyone who thought they had a good game it would have made me enjoy the course less, as the round was already over 4 hrs.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Surprise! Shorter Courses Are More Popular
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2010, 05:51:24 PM »
I like to play courses of the exact same length every time I go out....NO I DON"T.  Some days I want the longer irons into every hole challenge, some days I don't.

I want someone to tell me how long a course I can play ...NO I DON'T.  Shame on you who preach short courses only or long courses only.

I want a man to set standards for a woman...NO I DON'T.  See above, chauvinists and misogynists

I want people to really pace off 300 yards and then try to hit it that far...YES I DO.  How many people claim to hit it 300?  The same guys who claim to have big...expense accounts.

I want to hit two woods and a wedge to every hole..SOMETIMES.  Some days you play with mud on the ball, some days you hit two woods and a wedge to every hole...I hate it, though, when I have to do it on four consecutive par threes!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

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