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Phil_the_Author

The Mucci-Wolffe Baltusrol Challenge
« on: September 30, 2010, 12:21:05 AM »
And the winner is.......   NOBODY... They BOTH LOST!

First, neither was able to drive it down the left side on #3 lower. Then the real challenge, trying to play it into the green via the ground in front of the green ended with Pat placing a good half dozen balls on the green via the air and only one by means of a "lucky" bounce on a shot he admitted as being short while it was in the air. Rick hit only one shot with a ball he dropped in the fairway (rumor has it the ground crew are out in the woods and one unlucky guy is still scuba-diving in #4's pond looking for a number of his own and many, many of Patricks Pro-v1's that he borrowed) and played a glorious 6-iron high and perfect stopping within a foot of the spot it laned about 8 feet from the hole. (Someone needs to check the grooves on his irons!)

Since neither hit the challenge drive nor played a low runner short of and onto the green, they both lost!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Mucci-Wolffe Baltusrol Challenge
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2010, 01:05:20 AM »
And the winner is.......   NOBODY... They BOTH LOST!

I cry "FOUL" and protest.


First, neither was able to drive it down the left side on #3 lower.

That was my point, it's next to impossible to drive it down the left side near the left rough.
I always maintained that the best tee shot was at the second tree or dormer with a draw to the center of the fairway, which is exactly what I did.

I hit 8 perfect drives right down the middle, some with a slight draw, some dead straight and some with a very slight fade.
And all ended up in the center of the fairway and in the right center of the fairway from 150 to 180 from the green, with a perfect, unobstructed shot into the green


Then the real challenge, trying to play it into the green via the ground in front of the green ended with Pat placing a good half dozen balls on the green via the air and only one by means of a "lucky" bounce on a shot he admitted as being short while it was in the air.

 Rick hit only one shot with a ball he dropped in the fairway (rumor has it the ground crew are out in the woods and one unlucky guy is still scuba-diving in #4's pond looking for a number of his own and many, many of Patricks Pro-v1's that he borrowed) and played a glorious 6-iron high and perfect stopping within a foot of the spot it laned about 8 feet from the hole. (Someone needs to check the grooves on his irons!)

Since neither hit the challenge drive nor played a low runner short of and onto the green, they both lost!

Wait a second, I always claimed that the drive couldn't be hit down the left side due to the trees.
Only someone with horrible course management skills, like RAN or TEPAUL would attempt that shot.
So, on that point, I WIN point # 1.

And, it was always my contention that the AERIAL shot was the approach shot of choice since the fronting creek has to be negotiated along with the flanking front bunkers if you try to run it in, whereas an AERIAL shot avoids those hazards.

I hit all of my shots onto the green with a 4-iron.
Rick hit his shot onto the green with a 6-iron.

ALL shots were AERIAL, so, I WIN point # 2 as well.

Even a true impartial Judge ;D, the CLUB PRESIDENT agrees with me.



Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Mucci-Wolffe Baltusrol Challenge
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2010, 01:31:29 AM »
The Mucci-Wolfe challenge was held early this evening on the 3rd hole at Baltusrol lower.

Present were three very imPARTIAL judges !  !  !

Rick Wolfe, Bob Trebus, Phil Young and myself.

My contention was that the 3rd hole cannot be played down the left side of the fairway with the ball coming to rest in the DZ next to the left side rough due to the dogleg nature of the hole, the dense trees lining the left side of the fairway and the right to left slope of the fairway.

Rick maintained that the ideal angle of approach is the left side of the fairway, immediately adjacent to the left rough.
A position valid in theory, but, not in practice

In addition, we disputed the golfers ability to hit a low running shot, landing over the fronting creek, but, short of the green, which would run onto the green.

While it may be disputed, the DZ is probably located 220 to 150 from the center of the green.
At that point, the fairway slopes down and right to left, making for an awkward lie, although, the further the drive is hit, the less steep the fairway slope.



We played the tee behind the tee where the black lines start

Phil Young flipped a coin, I called "heads", heads it was, so I gave Rick the honor.
Now Rick had not hit any warm up shots, was in a shirt and tie, so he was at a clear disadvantage.

Rick teed his ball up on the RIGHT side of the tee ( a classic mistake in my book) and proceeded to hit a very high tee shot that now probably resides in the pond short of the 4th green.  Rick then hit a second tee shot.... same result.  And a third..... same result.

I now teed my ball up and hit a drive into the right rough.
Then, I proceeded to hit 8 drives right down the center of the fairway, 150 to 180 from the green.

Rick was out of ammo, so, I went into my bag and gave him more balls.
Same results, although he did hit one into the far right woods.

Then Phil Young said that he could hit a high fade into the fairway.
I gave him some balls.
Results, deep into the left woods.

Fast forward.
We're sitting in the club grille.
The President, a very cordial fellow is summoned to the table by Rick.
Rick asks him, "where's the ideal spot to hit your tee shot on # 3 ?"
He responds, " The right center of the fairway"

Back to the 3rd fairway.

With the overhangnig trees tight to the left side of the fairway, the dogleg nature of the hole, the downhill right to left slope of the fairway in the DZ, the left rough, fronting creek, and bunkered green, I think all but Phil, think that the proper drive is to the right center of the fairway with a draw, NOT down the left side and not down the center with a draw, as the dangers of those shots, far outweigh the benefits.

As to the approach shot, there's no doubt that the left side is the prefered side to come in from, BUT, as YOGI said, "you can't get there from here" 

From one of my drives, about 160 from the flag, Rick hits a 6-iron to about 6 feet.

I go back to 180-190 and hit 5 4-irons, from a downhill sidehill lie.
4 hit the green with a cut and the other is pulled left of the green.

There's no way, from 200, 180 or 160 that a low, running shot, that barely clears the creek, but lands short of the green, is the prefered shot.

It's an aerial shot all the way, EXCEPT if you're foolish enough to pull or hook your drive into the left rough, then depending upon your lie, a running shot may be the shot of choice, but only because of the heavy roug, or low overhaning branches from the big trees.

I think Judge # 1, Bob will side with me.
I think Judge # 2, Rick will side with me.... reluctantly.
But, the EAST GERMAN Judge, Judge # 3, Phil, will refuse to side with me, clinging to the notion that AWT intended that a low draw to the left edge of the fairway is the shot of choice.

And, it may have been, but that was when golfers hit drives like line drives, not howitzers, which is today's game.

In addition, we all agreed that with Persimmon, we could turn the ball more, but that it was harder to draw the ball, especially with the mental image of those trees and double bogey or worse staring you in the face on the left side of that fairway.

When we were finished, I was short 6 golf balls due to the failure of the RICK/PHIL tee shot experiment.

In medal play, that's two strokes.
In match play, probably loss of hole, unless the other bozo hit's it out of play LEFT as well.

You can recover from the deep right rough.
You can't recover from the deep left rough,
And, you definitely CAN'T recover from the pond on # 4

After golf we toured the course and then had a great meal and even better discussions.

Bob, Rick & Phil,

Thanks for a great afternoon and evening.

Phil_the_Author

Re: The Mucci-Wolffe Baltusrol Challenge
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2010, 09:47:46 AM »
Pat,

Your appeal has been heard and the response from the judge is  :P

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Mucci-Wolffe Baltusrol Challenge
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2010, 12:16:53 PM »
I'd have to agree with Pat on this one 100%.  With the shape of the hole and the cant of the fairway, a tee shot down the right hand side is ideal.  A tee shot played down the right side with some draw will end up in the middle to left hand side of the fairway if it's a bit firm.

Doesn't the 2nd shot play slightly downhill?  Why would someone try to run their shot onto that green as opposed to flying it there?  The green has some tough undulation.  Trying to judge a running shot into that green with the fronting slope and the green contours is next to impossible. Why would you?

I always ask the same question to this group when talking about the ground game...Why?  Unless you're forced to keep the ball close to the ground (Hitting a escape/trouble shot or playing in very high winds) why would you hit a running type shot?  For a player of better to average skill level, the results of getting the ball from point A to point B through the air are going to be significantly better than trying to run a shot to point B.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Mucci-Wolffe Baltusrol Challenge
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2010, 03:57:00 PM »
Pat,

Your appeal has been heard and the response from the judge is  :P


Phil,

Remind me again, how many of the tee shots that you and Rick tried to hit down the left side ended up in the left woods, how many in the right woods and how many in the fairway ?

Would it be safe to say 9-1-0 ? ;D

As I indicated, theory is nice, but when you have to tee it up and make a score, course management, except for Ran and TEPaul is a critical aspect of the game, and course management dictates driving down the right side with a draw, as opposed to the center with a draw or god forbid, down the left side with a draw or straight ball.

It was a fun afternoon and evening

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Mucci-Wolffe Baltusrol Challenge
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2010, 03:59:39 PM »
I'd have to agree with Pat on this one 100%.  With the shape of the hole and the cant of the fairway, a tee shot down the right hand side is ideal.  A tee shot played down the right side with some draw will end up in the middle to left hand side of the fairway if it's a bit firm.

Doesn't the 2nd shot play slightly downhill?  Why would someone try to run their shot onto that green as opposed to flying it there?  The green has some tough undulation.  Trying to judge a running shot into that green with the fronting slope and the green contours is next to impossible. Why would you?

I always ask the same question to this group when talking about the ground game...Why?  Unless you're forced to keep the ball close to the ground (Hitting a escape/trouble shot or playing in very high winds) why would you hit a running type shot?  For a player of better to average skill level, the results of getting the ball from point A to point B through the air are going to be significantly better than trying to run a shot to point B.


You're right on the mark with this.

From a downhill sidehill lie, over a fronting creek to a green guarded at the front and flanks, why would you try to blade a ball, low, to get it to land short of the green and run up to the green through a narrower front opening ?

You wouldn't, it's just not the shot of choice from ANY part of the fairway.



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