[Tony_Muldoon]

We all hate these lists yet they draw us back.

Just for fun I went through it and beside each course I'd played I marked it as either too low, about right or too high.  I did it on a strictly numeral basis for one to ten and then whether the course was in the right decade or not thereafter.

The results

16 too low
14 about right
17 too high.


So allowing for personal preference it really was getting it about right, (although the absence of Pennard still rankles.)

[Adrian_Stiff]

How can Turnberry come out number 1? Top 15 maybe but the best gb&i course? Wow.

Turnberry would be my number 1. Turnberry is number 1,2 or 3 in most lists. To place it only 15 is Wow. But it shows opinions and that we all like different,  thats why the collation of opinion is the only real fair method.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tony - I think Pennard is punished because of the cow shit.

[Brian Phillips]

]Turnberry would be my number 1. Turnberry is number 1,2 or 3 in most lists.

I agree with you Adrian. Turnberry is one of my favourite golf courses in Britain.

[Ben Stephens]

Birkdale was 2nd but as a golf course I prefer Birkdale to Turnberry. It seems that views are a factor in these rankings look at Carnoustie and Silloth! They are better golf course than most but 'ruined' by surrounding landscape in some people's views

Pennard is a course of 2 halves - if it was based on the strong half it would be a shoo in for the top 50 irrelavnt of any cow shit.

One other course that is missing - Cavendish!!!!

 

[Sean_A]

Generally speaking, the championhsip courses are rated too highly, most especially Lytham and to a lesser degree Troon, but we can argue this sort of stuff all day.  I will pick courses which I know should be thrown under the bus and list the courses which should leap forward.  There are other courses I would like to see jump in at the expense of a few more on the list, but that is as much about personal preference as quality.  Still, I question the likes of Dukes & Chart Hills.  Any list which can include these courses is too deep for its own good.

Under the Bus

Southport & Ainsdale
St Mellion (wtf?)
Belfy
Tralee

IN

Beau Desert
Pennard
Southerndown
Wallasey

I also can't beieve there isn't a place for Brora on this list so I will make an exception and axe one of the biggest muckups with a great piece of land in the history of gca - HILLSIDE.  Brora should take this spot on principle alone.
 
In terms of some courses being ranked, but so far out of whack it seems incomprehensible: ENNISCRONE - how in the world does this course barely make the top 100?  Absolute stupidity.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ben - I think views are a big factor, using the land outside of the golf course is what great golf design is all about, but it can only be part of a great routing since you can't make it. I think golf courses with power stations or pylons should be punished in the rankings since they are negatives. What this thread shows me is that we all have different ways we assess a golf course and some of us like tea and some like coffee, no one ir right and no one is wrong because it is subjective, but when you amass 100 opinions or a 1000 opinions and your faves go missing you have to question your own opinion that it is a minority one. A minority opinion is not wrong though. This site has definitely changed my opinion and method how I design golf courses and who is to say in years tyo come the minor key might be the major key.

Sean- I think Brora was 101 or very close to making it. Courses like Enniscrone and the remote Irish ones suffer a bit from being unknown to the raters. I agree with the 4 you picked out Wallasey, Southerndown, Beau & Pennard as being great contenders. I dont know Ainsdale really but those 4 pip them in my book too.

Getting back to Pennard, I think the raters mark quite strongly for conditioning and that is what gives it the axe.
Ithink there are some great new courses though.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben - I think views are a big factor, using the land outside of the golf course is what great golf design is all about, but it can only be part of a great routing since you can't make it. I think golf courses with power stations or pylons should be punished in the rankings since they are negatives. What this thread shows me is that we all have different ways we assess a golf course and some of us like tea and some like coffee, no one ir right and no one is wrong because it is subjective, but when you amass 100 opinions or a 1000 opinions and your faves go missing you have to question your own opinion that it is a minority one. A minority opinion is not wrong though. This site has definitely changed my opinion and method how I design golf courses and who is to say in years tyo come the minor key might be the major key.

Sean- I think Brora was 101 or very close to making it. Courses like Enniscrone and the remote Irish ones suffer a bit from being unknown to the raters. I agree with the 4 you picked out Wallasey, Southerndown, Beau & Pennard as being great contenders. I dont know Ainsdale really but those 4 pip them in my book too.

Getting back to Pennard, I think the raters mark quite strongly for conditioning and that is what gives it the axe.
I think there are some great new courses though.

Adrian,

I agree that views are definitely a major factor – I was lucky with Rutland Water as the views are awesome – the golf course needs to keep on improving maybe it can get in the top 200 in 10 years!!

Pennard – condition wise I thought the greens were very good and the fairways ok despite it being common grazing land – I think the biggest issue is it has a few blind shots and the way certain greens are located which means most would not like it. I don’t think condition is a major factor why Pennard is not in the top 200.

Cheers
Ben

[Mark Pearce]

The "surrounding views" issue at Silloth is nonsense.

On a couple of early holes you get to see the mill.  Later on, there's a caravan site on one hole.  The finishing holes run past houses.  It does not, despite what has been written by the idiots responsible for this ranking, have a power station anywhere in sight. So what?  One of the things people like about St Andrews, Elie et al is that they are "in town".  Why is that a problem at Silloth?  Because it's so remote?

[Ben Stephens]

Generally speaking, the championhsip courses are rated too highly, most especially Lytham and to a lesser degree Troon, but we can argue this sort of stuff all day.  I will pick courses which I know should be thrown under the bus and list the courses which should leap forward.  There are other courses I would like to see jump in at the expense of a few more on the list, but that is as much about personal preference as quality.  Still, I question the likes of Dukes & Chart Hills.  Any list which can include these courses is too deep for its own good.

Under the Bus

Southport & Ainsdale
St Mellion (wtf?)
Belfy
Tralee

IN

Beau Desert
Pennard
Southerndown
Wallasey

I also can't beieve there isn't a place for Brora on this list so I will make an exception and axe one of the biggest muckups with a great piece of land in the history of gca - HILLSIDE.  Brora should take this spot on principle alone.
 
In terms of some courses being ranked, but so far out of whack it seems incomprehensible: ENNISCRONE - how in the world does this course barely make the top 100?  Absolute stupidity.

Ciao

Sean,

I would say that St. Mellion from 1 to 18 is a better course than Pennard. Barring the overemphasis of the artifical spectator mounding it is a strong course with very good par 3's and par 5's which I would say is better than Nicklaus' work at Gleneagles. The English Open is there next year so it will be interesting to see how the pros play there after a while off the radar. Also it is the hardest golf course I have played in England. Thats why its in the top 100 and will probably rise after more media exposure being a tour venue again.

The Belfry has improved design and condition wise over the last 25 years and it s one of the top 10 must play for any golfer in the UK. I last played it before they made the changes prior to the 2002 Ryder Cup. I would definitely try the current set up to see how much it has moved on.

Beau Desert and Southernedown are defintely 100-200 maybe a borderline top 100.

There is a lot of good new courses.

Brora, Enniscrone and Carne are probably ranked higher due to accesibility for the majority of golfers.

Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

The "surrounding views" issue at Silloth is nonsense.

On a couple of early holes you get to see the mill.  Later on, there's a caravan site on one hole.  The finishing holes run past houses.  It does not, despite what has been written by the idiots responsible for this ranking, have a power station anywhere in sight. So what?  One of the things people like about St Andrews, Elie et al is that they are "in town".  Why is that a problem at Silloth?  Because it's so remote?

Yes, like Brora, Enniscrone and Carne - are ranked higher because of its remoteness which I think is partly unfair!

[Sean_A]

"I would say that St. Mellion from 1 to 18 is a better course than Pennard."

Ben, the above quote tells me all I need to know in terms of how very different our views are on architecture.  To me, St Mellion is nothing but a slog with some stupidly sloped fairways that adds nothing to the canon of architecture.  I would wager serious money that Nicklaus would like to have another go at designing this course - that is if it registers at all on his huge resume of design.  If you want to see this style of design take a trip to the US and find 500 better examples.  St Mellion is the poster child of why a top 100 for GB&I is hopelessly too mnay courses to rank.

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

"I would say that St. Mellion from 1 to 18 is a better course than Pennard."

Ben, the above quote tells me all I need to know in terms of how very different our views are on architecture.  To me, St Mellion is nothing but a slog with some stupidly sloped fairways that adds nothing to the canon of architecture.  I would wager serious money that Nicklaus would like to have another go at designing this course - that is if it registers at all on his huge resume of design.  If you want to see this style of design take a trip to the US and find 500 better examples.  St Mellion is the poster child of why a top 100 for GB&I is hopelessly too mnay courses to rank.

Ciao

Sean,

Nicklaus had a chance to redesign the course when St. Mellion was being refurbushed and instead chose just to update the bunkering and add a few more new tees. Jack loves what he did at St. Mellion and it is tough and fair challenge.

I am not really a fan of Nicklaus courses generally as they are too monotonous and repetitive but St. Mellion is a bit different. It has chocolate drop mounding (more like chocolate buttons) in the middle of the fairways this is unuusal for Nicklaus!! The par 3's are far better than Pennards  and the thing that is really missing on the Nicklaus course is a decent drivable short par 4.

I have definitely played more than 20 courses in the States - inc. Harbour Town and Doral (Blue Monster) I would prefer to play the St. Mellion Nicklaus course than them as Harbour Town and Doral are so overrated and predominately flat and I was surprised how good and strong the Nicklaus course was considering I had already played a couple of other Nicklaus courses - Gleneagles, Golden Bear in HHI.

The majority of the golfers in the UK would prefer St. Mellion as a golf course over Pennard probably 8 to 2 or even 9 to 1.

Cheers
Ben

[Ally Mcintosh]

St Mellion is the poster child of why a top 100 for GB&I is hopelessly too mnay courses to rank.

Wait for the Top 100 in Ireland alone Sean... Out in the next few days...

[Adrian_Stiff]

Again whilst some dont enjoy seeing rankings, many do, I would like to see a more detailed 200, 250 or 500. I read golf magazines purely for the golf courses featured, I have no interest in swing instruction or the latest high tech equipment survey... but many do.

St Mellion has some great holes, the spell from 10-13 are superb. Some parts are tight and its very tough, its certainy a very untypical JN course though the same green complexes as seen on many are there. I think it just deserves it top 100 place overall. The Belfry I think gets a bad rap on here too as do many new ones.

[Scott Warren]

Ben Stephens:

The Belfry has improved design and condition wise over the last 25 years and it s one of the top 10 must play for any golfer in the UK

You would tell a golfer coming to the UK with the chance to see 10 courses that one of them should be The Belfry?

[Niall C]

The "surrounding views" issue at Silloth is nonsense.

On a couple of early holes you get to see the mill.  Later on, there's a caravan site on one hole.  The finishing holes run past houses.  It does not, despite what has been written by the idiots responsible for this ranking, have a power station anywhere in sight. So what?  One of the things people like about St Andrews, Elie et al is that they are "in town".  Why is that a problem at Silloth?  Because it's so remote?

Mark

I've always liked to think that I'm not influenced by views in judging a course however I have to say at Silloth, the first five holes are perhaps my favourite stretch of golf anywhere and the holes offer great views IMHO. You look down the first to a rolling fairway edged by heather and pockets of gorse with dunes in the distance. From the dell like green at the first you climb to the tee which sits on a small dune which offers another view in similar vein to the first. It just fires your desire to play. The third offers even better and more expansive views especially when you climb upto the 4th tee and look over the Solway to Scotland. Its only the 4th where the mill forms part of a backdrop but if anyone pays much attention to that when they are playing one of the best links holes you'll ever play, they've wasted there greenfee. Follow that up with the par 5 fifth playing down the coastline with the Isle of Man in the distance and you wonder why anyone would think this course doesn't have views.

But then, as you know, I'm biased when it comes to Silloth.

Niall

[Ben Stephens]

Ben Stephens:

The Belfry has improved design and condition wise over the last 25 years and it s one of the top 10 must play for any golfer in the UK

You would tell a golfer coming to the UK with the chance to see 10 courses that one of them should be The Belfry?

Scott.

Personally I wouldn't given the choices available that I know are in the UK. For an overseas person with very little knowledge of courses in the UK they would probably choose the Belfry due its media exposure of hosting the Ryder Cup 3 times and to take on the famous 10th and 18th holes. When I went to Miami I chose to play the Blue Monster just because it was a PGA Tour course. The Belfry has done a lot to promote UK golf and I would try it again because I have not played the current set up - I last played it in the late 1990's before they made drastic changes for the 2002 Ryder Cup.

Most golfers in the UK would definitely play the Belfry. We GCA'ers are in the minority and play the hidden gems which are great value for money to play on and we appreciate them more than the 'normal' golfers. The green fees at the Belfry are now very expensive due to popular demand and commercial 'pull' (this is probably the same for the Celtic Manor)

Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

Again whilst some dont enjoy seeing rankings, many do, I would like to see a more detailed 200, 250 or 500. I read golf magazines purely for the golf courses featured, I have no interest in swing instruction or the latest high tech equipment survey... but many do.

St Mellion has some great holes, the spell from 10-13 are superb. Some parts are tight and its very tough, its certainy a very untypical JN course though the same green complexes as seen on many are there. I think it just deserves it top 100 place overall. The Belfry I think gets a bad rap on here too as do many new ones.

Adrian,

The last Golf World GB&I Rankings (2008) also had 100 - 200 in order because I remember Luffenham Heath being ranked 141st - didn't it? if so I am surprised that they did not do the same for this one.

Cheers
Ben

[Scott Warren]

Ben:

Most golfers in the UK would definitely play the Belfry. We GCA'ers are in the minority and play the hidden gems which are great value for money to play on and we appreciate them more than the 'normal' golfers. The green fees at the Belfry are now very expensive due to popular demand and commercial 'pull' (this is probably the same for the Celtic Manor)

I was subscribed to a few of the golf trip websites when I was in London and no course prostituted itself as hard as The Belfry. At one stage I was offered a night's room and brekkie and two rounds of golf, one on the Brabazon, for 99 quid.

Re: the oft uttered line that "most normal golfers, not freaks like us, would love to play it" was not really the case in my experience. I had a good group of golfing mates around London during my stay who were the absolute antithesis of the GCA fanboy and I remember bringing up the Belfry over beers one night and none of them was at all enthused about playing it.

The discussion does remind me though of my favourite put-down in all the golf course reviews I have read. One bloke reviewing Deal on that top100golfcourses site lamented "the low-light of the day was being beaten by a guy who prefers the Brabazon", or words to that effect.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben:

Most golfers in the UK would definitely play the Belfry. We GCA'ers are in the minority and play the hidden gems which are great value for money to play on and we appreciate them more than the 'normal' golfers. The green fees at the Belfry are now very expensive due to popular demand and commercial 'pull' (this is probably the same for the Celtic Manor)

I was subscribed to a few of the golf trip websites when I was in London and no course prostituted itself as hard as The Belfry. At one stage I was offered a night's room and brekkie and two rounds of golf, one on the Brabazon, for 99 quid.

Re: the oft uttered line that "most normal golfers, not freaks like us, would love to play it" was not really the case in my experience. I had a good group of golfing mates around London during my stay who were the absolute antithesis of the GCA fanboy and I remember bringing up the Belfry over beers one night and none of them was at all enthused about playing it.

The discussion does remind me though of my favourite put-down in all the golf course reviews I have read. One bloke reviewing Deal on that top100golfcourses site lamented "the low-light of the day was being beaten by a guy who prefers the Brabazon", or words to that effect.

Scott

Most normal golfers that I know that have never played the Belfry before playing it tend to come out of it realising how overrated it is. Certain players prefer to play parkland courses rather than play Links I played in a tournament at Hunstanton and one of my fellow competitors says Hunstanton is the only links course he plays on and he would play parkland most of the time given the choice.

The Brabazon course has dramatically improved since the cabbage patch that was initiated onto the tour a few years before the 1985 Ryder Cup even Ewen Murray said it was the worst course ever to host the European Tour in the early 80’s, nowadays there is massive difference to the current course compared to the one that first opened.  I would be interested to see how it plays these days.

Did the competitior mean the Brabazon at the Belfry or the one at Seaton Carew 

Cheers
Ben

[Mark Pearce]

Ben,

You have lost me completely.  Apparently the Belfry is one of the top ten must plays in the UK.  Then it's a course where most people who play it realise how over-rated it is.  Which is it?

Niall,

Biased, maybe.  Right, though.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben,

You have lost me completely.  Apparently the Belfry is one of the top ten must plays in the UK.  Then it's a course where most people who play it realise how over-rated it is.  Which is it?

Mark

For most UK club golfers the Belfry is one of the top ten must plays in the UK and the feed back I get from most people I know they feel that it is overrated - hope that makes more sense. I wonder what the turnover for the green fees on the Brabazon is per year!

Its not in my top 1000 must play! I would be interested to see how it plays these days as they have recently changed the 7th, 11th and 14th holes. The big bunker in front of the green is replaced by an enlarged pond, the 11th has a new green 30-40 yards further up and the 14th large bunker is reduced. Its all on the course guide on the Belfry's website

Cheers
Ben
 

[Scott Warren]

So the changes include a massive lake in front of a green and 30-40 extra yards on another hole? Sounds exciting!

I think we insult the average UK golfer when we say "the average golfer loves it". Those I came into contact with loved the heathland courses around London, were big fans of Beau Desert and Silloth, argued over the merits of lesser-known Scottish links.

I think what most "average golfers", indeed probably all golfers, get some thrill out of is playing the courses that we see on TV. I realise The Belfry used to have that allure, but with Celtic Manor now offering much the same thing not too much further away for most golfers in the South East (closer for some) and with much more recent relevance, I wonder how long The Belfry can keep trading off former glories. Judging by the astoundingly cheap deals being offered, they are already feeling it.

[Mark Pearce]

Scott,

Agreed.  I don't know anyone who has raved about the Belfry and none of my (non-GCA) golfing friends have expressed any desire to play it.  I wonder, in fact, if my desire to play it to see if it's as bad as I expect isn't greater than whatever desire they may have to play it!  Having said which, Slaley Hall is very popular up here, so the golfing public's taste is, indeed, dubious.

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