Mackenzie's South American Designs - article in Golf Australia magazine

[Neil_Crafter]

The October 2010 issue of Golf Australia magazine contained this article  about David Edel, Mike deVries and the El Boqueron recreation project they have planned for a site in Texas. Very interesting.

Also contains references to plans David has of two other Mac designs - Mar del Plata and Nautico San Isidro.

[Sean_Tully]

Neil

Thank you for posting this. Love the fact that there are more plans out there and hope to get a better look at them at some point. Would love to see the 17th at San Isidrio that Simpson talks about and see how it compares to what he drew up in his short article on the hole.

Glad that we have someone looking after MacKenzie's connection to his work in South America, prior to some email correspondence with David I was not that optimistic.

Love the San Isidrio routing-- the use of land and how the green sites are clustered to add intimacy. Also, adds to the economy of construction and the reduced maintenance costs.

Gotta love the golf magazines from Australia!


Best of luck to David, Mike, and all the rest that are trying to give a fascinating story a conclusion!

Tully

[Neil_Crafter]

Sean
My pleasure. Thought it was a good article, with some subsequent information to the original T&L Golf article by Tom Dunne. There is a lot to know about Mac's South American adventure but a little more is coming to light with some of our finds from the British golf magazines.
It is nice to see articles like this getting a run in our mainstream golf mags.
Agree, best of luck to David and Mike with the recreation project and like you, hope to see one day the Mar del Plata and Nautico plans that David has bought.

[Mike_DeVries]

Neil,

Thanks for posting.  I talked with Rod Morri this summer but  I had not seen the article yet, so nice to get a look at it.  Curious to hear questions and thoughts from people about the article and project.  And thanks for the good wishes! 

All the best,
Mike

[David Edel]

Hello,

Neil, thanks for posting the article, Rod Morrison did a great job. 

We have some interested parties involved and hopefully we can get rolling with the project in the near future. 

On another note, I am amazed that a thread on rain gear has 110 posts, but when a picture of a Mackenzie Lido hole appears above, nobody comments on it, in this an architecture forum?  I am sure that my bias is evident, but the picture above should be of major concern on a venue such as this.  To my knowledge Mackenzie never used this hole, which kicked of his fame on any of his other designs.  Am I correct in this assumption?

Sorry, but if you guys don't think this is important, who esle will?  Makes me rethink whether I should try to follow through building  courses of unused Mackenzie's if those that should care have more interest in rain gear at the Ryder cup? 

Any thoughts?
 

[George Freeman]

Hi David,

I'm assuming it is more of a bad timing issue with the Ryder Cup than lack of interest in the project.  I know there was a lot of interest from GCA.com in an earlier thread on the project.  Rest assured, this project is VERY interesting to me and I think many others feel the same.

Any updates on the project?  How close are you to securing funding and breaking ground?  Any estimation of a timeline?

A great deal of my interest in the course lies in the green complexes.  Will they tend to be more built up?  It appears from Mike's sketches that there will be quite a bit of movement/undulation.  Is this movement found at the site or will the majority of it need to be created?

Also, how many of the double greens will be approached from opposite directions vs. some angle less than 180 degrees (or even less than 90 degrees)?  The only course I've played with extensive double greens is the Old Course, where most (I think all??) are approached 180 degrees from the direction of play coming in at the other pin.

Is it envisioned that the course will be open year round?

Questions can be for you and/or Mike.

Thanks in advance!

- George

[Niall C]

David

Yes, leeky rainsuits type threads will tend to get more attention right up to the point where your course opens for play and then there will probably be 4 or 5 threads running at once   Hopefully that day will not be too far away but obviously its not an easy time to get finance/backers. I'm sure everyone wishes you luck in your endeavours.

A couple points from what was a fascinating article. How sure are you that the Lido hole was never built at San Isidro ? I've never been but from the Google earth type aerial it appears that land mass that MacKenzie envisaged being created actually did get created with the exception that the rugged coastline with the Lido hole, and the 4th and 8th, became a marina. Is it possible that this happened at a later date, after the course was originally built ? I appreciate that the club are telling a different story but given they are quite happy to sell off their history, and very well done on your purchase, how much do they actually know ?

On your El Boqueron course, the land that MacKenzie originally planned to use, has it been developed out or is it that they aren't that interested in having a golf course ? Did you get the chance to inspect it the land to see how it matched up to the plan ?

Final question, and having seen a few MacKenzie plans, I have to say that while they have a lot of marvellous design, the are somewhat lacking on modern safety values ie. you might need a hard hat to play the course as designed. I would imagine that the El Boqueron plan with its double greens might throw up similiar issues and would be interested to know how you and Mike are looking at dealing with them.

Niall

edited for spelling and (some) stupid comments

[Bill_McBride]

David, is the Lido hole #7 at the San Isidro sailing club?  It's great there are, terrain and features to build the hole but little incentive to drive onto the island.

El Boqueron has been a fascinating topic since you introduced it. Only the Ryder Cup with its immediate excitement could take higher priority than a lost and found set of Mackenzie plans!

Glad to hear you may have the financing to move forward. Hopefully we'll see El Boq spring to life in Texas! 

[Mike_DeVries]

Hi David,

A great deal of my interest in the course lies in the green complexes.  Will they tend to be more built up?  It appears from Mike's sketches that there will be quite a bit of movement/undulation.  Is this movement found at the site or will the majority of it need to be created?
THERE IS MOVEMENT ON THE SITE BUT IT IS MOSTLY GRADUAL, WITH A DRY CREEK THROUGH THE LOW SECTION IN THE SAME LOCATION AS THE LOW VALLEY OF THE ORIGINAL SITE IN ARGENTINA.  MOVEMENT ON THE GREENS IS VIA MACKENZIE'S PLAN AND THERE WILL BE MANY AREAS OF AT-GRADE APPROACHES BUT FALL-OFFS WHERE THERE IS BUILD-UP FOR THE CANT OF THE LAND.
Also, how many of the double greens will be approached from opposite directions vs. some angle less than 180 degrees (or even less than 90 degrees)?  The only course I've played with extensive double greens is the Old Course, where most (I think all??) are approached 180 degrees from the direction of play coming in at the other pin.  
4 OF THEM ARE ABOUT 90deg, 4 OF THEM ARE ABOUT 45deg, AND 1 IS ABOUT 135deg.  THE ROUTING GOES IS INTERTWINED AND NOT LINEAR LIKE THE OLD COURSE, WHERE THE APPROACHES ARE ALL 180deg, WITH FINE VARIATIONS FOR FLAGSTICK LOCATIONS.  AT EL BOQUERON, THE VARIATIONS IN APPROACH ARE DUE TO SIDE SLOPE, ANGLE, HAZARDS, ETC.
Is it envisioned that the course will be open year round?  
YES

Questions can be for you and/or Mike.

Thanks in advance!

- George

[Mike_DeVries]

David

On your El Boqueron course, the land that MacKenzie originally planned to use, has it been developed out or is it that they aren't that interested in having a golf course ? Did you get the chance to inspect it the land to see how it matched up to the plan ?
YES, WE HAVE BOTH BEEN TO THE ORIGINAL SITE.  THE LAND IS NOT IN THE ANCHORENA FAMILY ANYMORE AND IT IS REMOTE, WITHOUT MUCH CHANCE OF BEING A VIABLE COURSE FOR EITHER PUBLIC OR PRIVATE PLAY THERE.

Final question, and having seen a few MacKenzie plans, I have to say that while they have a lot of marvellous design, the are somewhat lacking on modern safety values ie. you might need a hard hat to play the course as designed. I would imagine that the El Boqueron plan with its double greens might throw up similiar issues and would be interested to know how you and Mike are looking at dealing with them.
THERE IS PLENTY OF ROOM AND LINE OF SIGHT FOR MODERN PLAY VOLUMES, WHICH WILL NOT BE MUNI LEVEL OF 250+ PER DAY -- IT WILL BE A PRIVATE COURSE.  THE ONLY AREA WHERE I WAS REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE PROXIMITY OF THE HOLES AND TARGETS IS WHERE THE DRY CREEKBED IS LOCATED, SO THE GREEN THAT I WANTED TO MOVE A LITTLE NEEDS TO, TO ACCOMMODATE THE TERRAIN ON THE TEXAS SITE.
Niall

edited for spelling and (some) stupid comments

[Niall C]

Thanks Mike, sounds a fantastic project. Did MacKenzie give any notes on the plan with regards to green design/hazards etc., or are you interpreting what he was after by examples elsewhere ?

Niall

[David Edel]

Bill and Naill,

Yes, the plan was made for the sailing club Nautico San Isidro.  At the time Mackenzie was on the property only a boot shaped piece of land existed.  The rest was marsh and wetlands.  High from the vantage of the tower on the clubhouse, Mackenzie could see the profile of the property and designed a 9 hole preliminary routing that was to morph into the 18 hole master plan.  The course existed as a 9 holer until the late 40's early 50's as my memory serves me.  I have 30 years bound by year from the Golfer Argentino, and within where articles that described great floods from winter rains and storm surge that held the course flooded for months.  The nine hole course had several holes that were constantly taking the brunt of this flooding, so it was decided by the club to develop a dike to protect the property.  Carlos Blasi, the head professional was the architect to the new 18 hole plan, and it appears that he used the guideline of the Mackenzie plan, but due to the dike and the need for more marina space changed the configuration of the many of the hole routings and par three locations.  All the features of the coast line were not utilized then changed at a later date.  To this date the club suffers from flooding and can be closed for weeks due to high water. 

Thanks for the encouragement, sorry to sound like a whiner, but you pound away at a vision and when you see people make 110 posts on rain gear at the same time you show some crazy Mackenzie drawings of a lost Lido and two people post. 

The Nautico plan is a really neat layout and is in reserve for a piece of lake, ocean, or canyon scape that would value the design features of plan.  Anybody with some sweet land, I am in so give me a call and lets build a Mac. 

Thanks everyone,

David

[Bryan Drennon]

David,
I just wanted to let you know, this may be the coolest thing I've ever seen on this or any other website. I'm as confused as you as to why it doesn't have 3000 posts by now. It's the equivalent of finding a Picasso and nobody in your art school can talk about anything other than their Montblanc leaking. Please keep us updated on you're progress.

[Neil_Crafter]

David
I don't know if you have seen this article by Tom Simpson, writing about a letter and plan he received from Dr Mackenzie while Mackenzie was in Argentina. As it describes a hole in Mackenzie's plan for Nautico San Isidro, I was just wondering how closely Simpson's sketch of it relates to the hole on the plan you have.

[Tom MacWood]

Based on the info about the reclaiming of land I wonder if San Isidro was to be Mackenzie's Lido or Timber Point. Its a shame the plan is not shown in its entirety... it would be a fascinating study.

The green and stream at #13 San Isidro looks a little like the first at the Old Course.

[Steve Lang]

  Call me biased (in The Woodlands) but I think the famed course(s) should all be built in TX Hill Country or thereabouts, which might as well be regarded as "a lost world like south america to many"  

.. then they'd only be hours away from me 

I think such courses would seriously challenge Old Macdonald at Bandon for national interest and very easily for accessibility and regional support in TX that's missing in remote Oregon.

Is there any way to invest in this adventure, to reserve a doorway to access, membership?   Has that been thought out?

Seeing Mackenzie's sketches of green complexes leads me to thinking that the man's artistic flair and imagination may have struck a chord with Strantz, who similarly liked to put visualizations of holes onto canvas or sketchbook.. can one buy a print or two to help support the endeavor?   I promise not to built one!

Are Mike D and Grandpa Joe learning tex-mex spanish?

[Mark McKeever]

Would you really try to hit your tee shot between the bunker and the stream, at an angle that takes you directly toward the stream? It does not seem real, it doesn't even look good on paper much less standing on the tee. I think you have a better chance aiming between the two bunkers. At least a miss does not cost you a stroke.

It seems like a better strategy to head further right.  If you manage to catch the fairway, you can go after the green.  If you miss, you can always lay up anyway if you're in the rough or the RH bunker off the tee.

Mark

[Carl Nichols]

As I've mentioned before on this site, my wife was born in Argentina, her entire extended family still lives there, we visit often, and we lived there for six monthsin 2009 -- so this project (and the stuff about San Isidro) is fascinating to me.  Following up on Steve Lang's questions, what's the best way to find out about potential memberships? 

[Jeff_Mingay]

Neat stuff. Thanks.

The last sentence in Mr. Simpson's article - quoting J.H. Taylor - is very interesting, too... the old-timers skill has vanished from the game, due to the multiplicity of clubs.

[erichunter]

This is very cool. 

Perhaps the title of the thread isn't drawing as many folks as it warrants but once you click on it....WOW. 

I recalled David's name from an article in the local paper earlier this year (http://www.statesman.com/sports/golf/edel-putters-come-in-small-batches-one-fitted-214595.html). 

Understandable if you don't want to divulge the proposed location but any hints as to where you are looking? 

I wish you the best of luck.  This Austinite is pulling for you.

[Neil_Crafter]

eric
If you have a suggestion for an improved thread title I'm happy to change it 
Neil

[Niall C]

Bill and Naill,

Yes, the plan was made for the sailing club Nautico San Isidro.  At the time Mackenzie was on the property only a boot shaped piece of land existed.  The rest was marsh and wetlands.  High from the vantage of the tower on the clubhouse, Mackenzie could see the profile of the property and designed a 9 hole preliminary routing that was to morph into the 18 hole master plan.  The course existed as a 9 holer until the late 40's early 50's as my memory serves me.  I have 30 years bound by year from the Golfer Argentino, and within where articles that described great floods from winter rains and storm surge that held the course flooded for months.  The nine hole course had several holes that were constantly taking the brunt of this flooding, so it was decided by the club to develop a dike to protect the property.  Carlos Blasi, the head professional was the architect to the new 18 hole plan, and it appears that he used the guideline of the Mackenzie plan, but due to the dike and the need for more marina space changed the configuration of the many of the hole routings and par three locations.  All the features of the coast line were not utilized then changed at a later date.  To this date the club suffers from flooding and can be closed for weeks due to high water. 

Thanks for the encouragement, sorry to sound like a whiner, but you pound away at a vision and when you see people make 110 posts on rain gear at the same time you show some crazy Mackenzie drawings of a lost Lido and two people post. 

The Nautico plan is a really neat layout and is in reserve for a piece of lake, ocean, or canyon scape that would value the design features of plan.  Anybody with some sweet land, I am in so give me a call and lets build a Mac. 

Thanks everyone,

David

David

Many thanks for that. Please forgive my speculating from the sidelines but often I read about a clubs history on their own website and it clearly doesn't match contemporary newspaper accounts. Royal Troon is a case in point, they still don't know they have the remnants of a MacKenzie course, and that is a club that does care about its history believe it or not. Unfortunately the real story is apt to get lost over time.

Some times these threads take time to warm up but once they get going there's no stopping them.

Niall

[Jud_T]

Mike,

This is a fascinating project.  If I had the scratch I'd cut you a check myself.  Best of luck and please keep us abreast of any developments...

[David Edel]

Neil,

The Simpson article is really cool.  The drawing does not match any hole on El Nautico San Isidro, nor Mar Del Plata.  The only two or three shot hole on El Nautico is the 7th as depicted in the article.  Do you know if Mackenzie used his Lido hole on any of his other designs. 


Tom,  I am glad you made the association to the 13 green and the stream as I also thought that it looked like the 1st at the Old Course.  The 11th is a classic Redan, and the 4th is a reverse of 16th at Cypress. 

I have an article by El Nacion from Buenos Aires from 1927 that talked about H. Cotton and Aubrey Boomer asked to consult El Nautico to design a golf course based on the great holes of the world.  I would guess this was a prespective that they asked Mackenzie to design the plan to?  So maybe this is why there are many similiarities to hole design concepts that are classic. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike, David -

the article notes that Mackenzie could design 9 double greens here because it was to be a private course with limited play. Do you think there were other reasons as well (besides paying homage to St Andrews)?  Does the layout suggest that the double greens add exponentially to the, say, strategic interest of the holes/routing?

thanks, best

Peter