[Ally Mcintosh]

When we were in Porthcawl, a few people mentioned how they didn’t like the drives on 12 and 17. Both these drives are blind and I’ve been thinking as to what makes an enjoyable blind shot as opposed to one that isn’t.

My reckoning is that these two holes (along with 18 at Co.Sligo for instance) are less pleasurable to some because you are playing a blind shot over the crest of a rising hill with no features to define where you go. In other words, you are playing a shot to a higher level.

For me, the best blind drives are usually those played over a dune at the same level to a tumbling fairway below. The 5th (soon to be 6th) at The Island is a good example. So of course, is the 9th at Royal County Down (whereas the 11th at the same course is more like the two shots at Porthcawl and less enjoyable because of it).

I also think that the best blind drives usually have something to aim at, whether it be something in the distance off the course (the two chimneys on the 5th at Portmarnock) or whether it be the shape of the dune you are hitting over e.g. a notch that you can aim against. It is also important that there are no huge surprises in the landing area – i.e. little chance of a lost ball.

As for blind par-3’s, the ones that really work are the ones that are less blind than you are led to believe. The Dell at Lahinch works because you know your ball has cleared one dune and has fallen short of the second. The 15th at Cruden Bay works less because you genuinely are just hitting and waiting to see…

Anyway, blind shots… What kind do you like?... And why?

[Tom_Doak]

Ally,

I have never thought much about the uphill or downhill factor because in my experience, most blind shots are fairly level.

To me a good blind shot is one where you are hitting over a large obstacle that has some shape to it, so you can pick a point on it's horizon to aim.  The worst kind would be a blind shot over a tall field of gorse where there's no definition at all.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I agree with the notion that you need some definition, like a saddle in the ridge you are hitting over, a target in the distance (natural over a sign), etc.  There is a limit to how uncomfortable I like to feel planning a shot.

In general, seeing the result is superior to not seeing it, because that is what we all naturally want.  However, the occaisional uncertainty is a nice change of pace. But the result should be uncertain for a while til you crest the hill, not the aim line.  That is not to say you can't have sort of a cape hole over dunes, but you still need to be able to generally assess how far you can cut the corner, too.

[Scott Warren]

For me a blind tee shot or 2nd shot on a par five is preferable to an approach. I can handle an approach where you can't see the green, only the top of the flag.... I really like them in fact, but for mine an entirely blind approach like the 13th at Rye or 5th at Painswick is fun occasionally, but I wouldn't want to play them all the time.

The blind drive on the 7th at St Enodoc is perhaps my idea of the ideal blind tee shot. Terrifying from the tee, but with acres of room once you get through to the fairway.

I also like a feature to drive over (such as the bunker on the 4th at Sandwich) moreso than just a featureless hill (8th at The Addington for example or the second shot to the 5th at NSW if your drive doesn't clear the hill). The blindness is enough of a factor without it being hard to work out where the hole goes.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,

I have never thought much about the uphill or downhill factor because in my experience, most blind shots are fairly level.

To me a good blind shot is one where you are hitting over a large obstacle that has some shape to it, so you can pick a point on it's horizon to aim.  The worst kind would be a blind shot over a tall field of gorse where there's no definition at all.

We have a couple of semi-blind tee shots over gorse at Portmarnock which I think unnecessary and are there only because the gorse was left to grow. In fact, at 11, the gorse hides a ridge that used to have a huge top-shot cross-bunker built in to it, something that would be nice to reinstate (aside from the fact that there is no cost or playability benefit from doing so - purely aesthetic variety).

I agree that these kind of shots are less desirable. Then again, there are a few of these exact types at The Old Course.

[Patrick Glynn]

I think it is important to have some definition to the blindness. I almost think a golfer should be able to intuitively figure out where he wants to go - a good example of that is Royal County Down's 5th.

Total blindless over a featureless obstacle (gorse) is never good - as Tom mentioned. Another aspect of good blind shots is the anticipation hitting over an obstacle and wondering at the result - see the Klondyke at Lahinch as one of the more thrilling 2nd shots in golf.

[Sean_A]

I can tolerate any sort of blind shot if 1) I placed myself in the wrong position (my favourite) and 2) if there is enough space so I am not overly concerned about losing a ball.  Generally speaking, blind shots should not occur when there is serious trouble out there, if the fairway turns sharply at the landing zone or if the prevailing wind makes it too difficult to reach a safe landing area.

I didn't care for the 17th at Porthcawl because it is dead easy to lose a ball right when it looks like you haven't gone that far right of the guide post.  Plus, the hole isn't visually pleasing for any of the shots.  I sort of liked the shot at #12 because I know a chaser can reach the green.  Plus, the bunkers one hits over are attractive.  I also tend to like blind shots where one has to go round (rather than over) the obstacle if he hopes to hit the green - St Enodoc's 10th is a good example.  A sling hook out toward the church will work its way back. 

Anyway I slice it, if there aren't opportunities for blindness on a course I personally knock it down a bit in my book.  Blindness is a classic feature that should be utilized if only to make the player uncomfortable once in a while. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean, I agree with you about 17 at Porthcawl... It doglegged slightly left and fell right in to some serious rough...  However, I am guessing the others that mentioned it liked it less mainly because it was uphill and without anything in the land to naturally aim at... Certainly less thrilling that way...

I didn't really talk about second shots but I also agree with you there... I like the odd hole with a blind second from the fairway if you have placed your drive on the wrong side...

[Bill_McBride]

We don't see many blind tee shots here in the US so I really like them when playing in the GB&I.   I absolutely loved Elie with the half a dozen tee shots over ridges to a marker post.  And I love it when my caddy at the Old Course picks out a church steeple for the best line - which one?  Oh, that one!

[Adam Lawrence]

I agree with Sean that it helps to have space around the landing area of a blind drive (and would add, perhaps even a bit of containment, or at least not much in the way of run-offs). For those who've been to Kennemer in Holland, the sixth hole on the A nine (the one that was built after the war by Frank Pennink, though largely following a routing plan of Colt's) has a blind drive through a fabulous saddle. It looks great until you get to the landing area and find that the hole turns quite hard to the right and your drive may have run away from you.

Colt's original plan called for the hole to take a different path between tee and green, to the other side of the knob that forms the right side of the saddle. Frank Pont, who consults at Kennemer, hopes to rebuild it in Colt's corridor. In some ways it's a shame, as, from the tee, the drive through the saddle is really inviting, but the landing area is far from ideal.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I agree with Sean that it helps to have space around the landing area of a blind drive (and would add, perhaps even a bit of containment, or at least not much in the way of run-offs). For those who've been to Kennemer in Holland, the sixth hole on the A nine (the one that was built after the war by Frank Pennink, though largely following a routing plan of Colt's) has a blind drive through a fabulous saddle. It looks great until you get to the landing area and find that the hole turns quite hard to the right and your drive may have run away from you.

Colt's original plan called for the hole to take a different path between tee and green, to the other side of the knob that forms the right side of the saddle. Frank Pont, who consults at Kennemer, hopes to rebuild it in Colt's corridor. In some ways it's a shame, as, from the tee, the drive through the saddle is really inviting, but the landing area is far from ideal.

I was going to mention Kennemer when Jeff posted his post, Adam... That hole could do with that re-routing.

There's only so far people can argue the "It's only blind once" theory. The big downhill kick on that hole and the 90 degree dogleg mean that even the most experienced member will never be sure if his ball has kicked in to some bad rough...

[George Pazin]

I can tolerate any sort of blind shot if 1) I placed myself in the wrong position (my favourite) and 2) if there is enough space so I am not overly concerned about losing a ball.  Generally speaking, blind shots should not occur when there is serious trouble out there, if the fairway turns sharply at the landing zone or if the prevailing wind makes it too difficult to reach a safe landing area.

Almost exactly what I planned on writing, just more concise.

I never really it put it together, but some of my favorite shots on my home muni are the blind ones. Of course, it helps tremendously that I've played the course a bunch, so I know where to aim - the fun is the anticipation building as I walk to see the result.

So I guess blindness works much better on a course you have played or will play a bunch. Pretty obvious, I know.

[D_Malley]

Merion has blind shots galore

2nd on #1 and #2
drive and 2nd shots on #4
drive on 6,7,8, and 11

just to name a few

this does not seem to play into the like or dislike of the course

[Dan Boerger]

To me, there's a pretty big distinction between blind and semi-blind. The shots I dislike the most are the uphill totally blind shots to a green. The 16th at Whitemarsh comes to mind. Great course, but just hate that tee shot.

D_Malley - Not sure I would consider the approach on Merion East as blind. Played it last week and with a wedge in saw the entire shot.

[D_Malley]

Dan, i guess you are only referring to the 2nd shot on #1
which you are right that if you hit it far enough it is not blind

[Peter Pallotta]

I like the kind of blind shots that I can see.

Yogi Berra

[Dan Boerger]

D_Malley -- You're right ... meant to be clear as to the first hole at Merion East. I really like the 8th blind tee shot. With the encroaching rough on the left and the fence on the right one must proceed with caution ... even for the pros who will likely be disappointed with anything but a birdie there.

[Jim Franklin]

I like blind shots like #3 at Old Macdonald. the very first time you walk up the dune and see what is on the other side is very cool.

[Tim Martin]

I like blind shots like #3 at Old Macdonald. the very first time you walk up the dune and see what is on the other side is very cool.

I like the blind shot 2nd at Fishers Island #4. Over the alps with only the giant directional flag behind the punchbowl green to aim at. When you get over the rise with a view down to the green it is quite a setting. When the player who hits it right to left leaves his tee shot on the extreme right hand portion of the fairway he is required to start it out over the coast line and move it back left to the green.This has to be one of the most exiting/frightening shots in golf.

[Mike_Trenham]

I like blind shots

1) to greens where you walk by the green earlier in the round making you pay attention to your surroundings while you play.
2) second shots on short or middle length par 5's which really make the holes play hard for those going for the green in two
3) short par 4's where the shot becomes more blind if you hit driver rather than lay back with bit less club
4) those that give you a wow factor when the blindness is gone like the alps hole at Fishers Island
5) drives to really rumpled or sloped fairways where you really don't know what kind of lie or distance you will have until you arrive

[James Boon]

Ally,

Any blind shot is fine by me, as nothing beats the anticipation of reaching the crest you have just driven over to see if your ball is where you want it to be. Sure every shot would be a grind, but I suspect I'd be happier with more blind shots on a course than most people?

I think you hit the nail on the head with your opening post. A blind drive over a series of dunes with planty of character is far more pleasureable than a blind drive over a gently rising featureless hill.

Cheers,

James

[Adam Clayman]

The best blind shots are the ones that put the player ill at ease. Or, the ones that on the previous shot put the player in the less than ideal position. Those tee shots that carry crests of a hill are important looks, for without them how repetitious would golf courses be?  

[Ally Mcintosh]

Those tee shots that carry crests of a hill are important looks, for without them how repetitious would golf courses be?  

Personally, I don't think this choice is ever desirable and if used too often it is not ideal and can be counted as poor design / routing. In my estimation, I think that most designers try not to route uphill holes that have a slightly steeper incline at the start than at the end (i.e. creating a small crest which renders the tee shot blind). Many who do have to move earth to make the hole visible, generally creating unnatural looking mounding to the sides in the process.

As much as I admire much of David Kidd's work, I think that this is a fault with Queenwood. There are a few holes on that course with blind tee shots over a crest.

[Adam Clayman]

Ally. After playing several Flynn courses and the Donald Ross course at Mountain Ridge, you maybe in for heat on your last post. Many holes I played this week had what you've described as "poor design". But this diversity in opinion and design is what makes the big world, big. How about that drive on the 8th at Pebble Beach? Poor design?

[Sean_A]

Those tee shots that carry crests of a hill are important looks, for without them how repetitious would golf courses be?  

Personally, I don't think this choice is ever desirable and if used too often it is not ideal and can be counted as poor design / routing. In my estimation, I think that most designers try not to route uphill holes that have a slightly steeper incline at the start than at the end (i.e. creating a small crest which renders the tee shot blind). Many who do have to move earth to make the hole visible, generally creating unnatural looking mounding to the sides in the process.

As much as I admire much of David Kidd's work, I think that this is a fault with Queenwood. There are a few holes on that course with blind tee shots over a crest.

I tend to agree with Adam.  Even though I am not overly fond of the 17 Porthcawl look, it is part of the bag of tools.  I seem to recall Co Down having more than a few of this general sort of blind tee shots.  RCD could in no way be considered a wide course and on at least one blinder the fairways turns with nasty rough.  It all depends on what comes before, after and how well the routing yields quality holes.  On some courses a lot cna be forgiven and on others little can be tolerated.

Ciao

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