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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #150 on: October 04, 2010, 11:11:57 PM »
Well some of that carries over here...at least I think some of the Philly guys at least questioned your ancestry a few times, no?  And the Merion Creation Story is sort of a religion around these parts.  (Sorry, couldn't resist.....)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #151 on: October 04, 2010, 11:39:22 PM »
Mike Cirba,  I hate to break it to you, but if anyone is playing the role of a conspiracy theorist it is you, and has been all along.   Remember your bogus and unsubstantiated attack on my motives, based on petty gossip.   That is the stuff of conspiracy.  Remember "Fool Me Once Cirba" and how you repeatedly accused Tom and I of sandbagging you guys, when in fact it was you who was sitting on relevant articles?  Remember the other day when you ridiculously claimed that there isn't a shred of evidence that they were working on the layout at NGLA? Your positions so far away from the record that it is hard to imagine you even believe yourself.

No matter how wild or crazy your various theories, whether it be my motives, Tom MacWood's sandbagging, the English Hugh Wilson traveling to Argentina, the Alps Hole, the Redan, etc.  all your theories have one common link.  No matter how over the top you get or how often you scream that I am a liar, or that this is outrageous, or that all you've settled all the issues once and for all, you have been wrong every single time.   What did Einstein say about doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results?

_____________________________________________

Dan Herrmann,

My mistake.   I was hoping that you actually had a basis for your new theory, and that it was more than just wishful thinking on your part.    I should know better.  But while your theory is a dead-end, it does provide a terrific example of just how absurd some of the positions are regarding Merion's history, including yours.   

There is absolutely no way you will ever give CBM involvement any real consideration no matter how much of the historical record points directly at him.  Instead, you'd rather just make up completely new and completely unsubstantiated theories, or whatever else happens to pop into your head. 

I'll bet that if Merion's Board had acknowledged that CBM was responsible for determining the final routing, you guys would still be trying to downplay his involvement[/u]!

Oh wait . . .
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #152 on: October 04, 2010, 11:41:01 PM »
"Ok, because I'm sitting alone in a bar in Boston,"


Perhaps you are, Cirba, but tomorrow you're going to have the treat of your life!  ;) It's too bad the likes of MacWood and Moriarty may never experience it.

You and me are going to be like ships passing in the night this week but if you can get back to Myopia this Friday or Saturday I'll show you the place like you wouldn't believe.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #153 on: October 04, 2010, 11:54:40 PM »
Glad to see your endless sycophancy is still paying off for you, Mike.

And TEPaul, nice touch broadcasting it on here.   I am sure that others got the message.   If I pretend that CBM had nothing to do with Merion, can I go to Myopia too?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #154 on: October 05, 2010, 12:06:12 AM »
"If I pretend that CBM had nothing to do with Merion, can I go to Myopia too?"


I doubt that Moriarty. But if you put about 2,000 hours into the research and restoration of Cobbs Creek even you may get a shot at going to or playing Myopia, arguably the FIRST great golf architecture in America!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #155 on: October 05, 2010, 12:12:05 AM »
Ah yes, you've always cared so much about public golf.   

As for me, don't worry about it.  What was it that A. Wilson said about CBM?  Well, I don't "play ball" either.  But Mike certainly deserves it.   He's given his integrity and reputation to your cause, and it is about time you guys started repaying him.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #156 on: October 05, 2010, 12:21:41 AM »
"Ah yes, you've always cared so much about public golf."


I'm not talking about me, Moriarty, I'm talking about Mike Cirba.   


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #157 on: October 05, 2010, 12:59:49 AM »
Try to keep up, Tom. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #158 on: October 05, 2010, 01:12:31 AM »
"Try to keep up, Tom."


Keep up with you and your garbage? OK, but let me think about that first! Perhaps the question for you is whether you want a future in golf architecture resarch. If so, why don't you get back to me on that in a couple of weeks and we can discuss it again.  
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 08:30:36 AM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #159 on: October 05, 2010, 05:59:39 AM »
David,

You are the one arguing that CBM designed Merion yet no one at the club ever thought to give him any credit or bring him back to design the west course, or advise and subsequent and significant changes to his creation over the next eighteen years while the course hosted 3 us amateurs and a us open on his supposed creation.

They not only neglected to cite their creator;  they credited someone else entirely!!  Not only did they claim it was wilson but others like tillinghast were apparently in on it too!!'

If that isn't a conspiracy theory then I don't know what is!  ;D

Mike Cirba

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #160 on: October 05, 2010, 06:04:53 AM »
Btw, not that it is any of your business but I'm sorry to disappoint you...Tom Paul had nothing to do with my itinerary and I would never be so presumptuous to ask him.

Tom has been a good friend and unlike many others, I don't try to use him for access and prefer to make my own arrangements.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #161 on: October 05, 2010, 06:35:11 AM »
Mike
The club never gave Flynn any credit either...to this day I don't believe he's given any credit.

The answer to your question is pretty obvious based on what transpired. They were never completed satisfied with their CBM-esque course and began redesigning it almost immediately. Wilson went to the UK in 1912 to study the iconic courses and holes that CBM reproduced and along the way he went to London. I'm convinced he came away more impressed with what he saw Colt, Fowler, and modern British golf architects were doing around London. The West course and the redesigned East course is a reflection of that modern British model.

Mike Cirba

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #162 on: October 05, 2010, 07:06:04 AM »
Tom,

What did Flynn have to do with the original design?

CBM was arguably the most important and prominent man in american golf at the time.  One would boast about a course design by him, no?

Please don't tell David that they grew dissatisfied with his design...he doesn't even want to hear that CBM had a drink or two.  ;)

TEPaul

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #163 on: October 05, 2010, 08:34:05 AM »
"Mike
The club never gave Flynn any credit either...to this day I don't believe he's given any credit."



Tom MacWood:

I'm glad to see you use your usual qualifier---eg 'I don't believe'---for your usual ignorance.


If there's room on the page, this is Merion's official new architect attribution:

Macdonald/Whigam/Barker/Lloyd/Connell/Francis/Wilson/Griscom/Toulmin/Pickering/Flynn/Toomey/Valentine/Colt/Maxwell/Valentine/Kittleman/Hanse/Fazio/Shaeffer
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 08:43:00 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #164 on: October 05, 2010, 08:44:43 AM »
TMac,

I had never quite thought about Wilson's influence in that way and you might have a good point.

Its clear that they didn't like the CBM rectangular look from the results and they did take out the Alps green soon after the trip, although part of that was eliminationg the road crossings, as per Francis.  There was one passage somewhere about Wilson having a better touch in design, if I remember correctly, and the overall look of Merion is closer to Colt than CBM.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #165 on: October 05, 2010, 09:20:20 AM »
Jeffrey:

Actually that's not MacWood's point, it's the point Wayne Morrison made on here about eight years ago.

It's pretty interesting how some of these self proclaimed "expert researchers" ;) on here are given some information and the next day they come on here and act like they found and figured out that information themselves. Moriarty has always been very good and pretty fast about that with Merion with information we supplied on here but MacWood has generally been a bit slow on the uptake as it seems it took him about eight years to figure out what Wayne Morrison said and to come on here and act like he thought it up himself.

And if we give MacWood another decade or so he might figure out that Horatio Gates Lloyd was not Robert Lesley!  ;)

Actually, the truth of why Macdonald came down to Ardmore in 1910 is he was looking to pick up some trading business from the Drexel & Co mega-stock underwriter---Lloyd. Why do you think he sent his letter to Horatio Gates Lloyd, c/o Drexel & Co, Philadelphia, Pa, instead of to MCC or Robert Lesley, the head of the MCC Search Committee?   ;)

TEPaul

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #166 on: October 05, 2010, 09:37:23 AM »
"My recollection is that the report read to the board on April 19th was read by Lesley...is it proven that Wilson wrote it on behalf of his committee for Lesley to report to the board as chairman of the golf committee?"


Sully:

No, it has not been proven which logically should mean Robert Lesley should be given almost full credit and attribution for designing Merion East and West. I'm on my way to the Lesley Cup at Brookline today and I will be sure to mention this to the Lesley Cup Trustees tomorrow. The captain of the Pennsylvania team is a past president of Merion and I think he will be delighted to hear that Robert Lesley designed Merion East instead of some inexperienced no-count insurance salesman like Hugh Wilson. It should be a lot easier for Merion to iconize Robert Lesley since he was a pretty big muck-a-muck in golf and we now know he was abroad a lot studying architecture before Merion was done.

Good catch there Sully!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #167 on: October 05, 2010, 09:42:05 AM »
Tom,

Your sarcasm is a little wierd...keep in mind exactly who is telling the rest of us that something not written down by these guys is not supportable by any fact.

TEPaul

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #168 on: October 05, 2010, 09:44:05 AM »
Hold on a minute Sully. Would you mind doing some more research to see if Robert Lesley ever beat Macdonald, Crump or Tillinghast in the Lesley Cup or if he ever beat Travis, Egan and such in the US Amateur? If not he should not be considered as the designer of Merion as he wasn't good enough at golf to know how to route and design a golf course.

Wait a minute. He couldn't have beaten Tillinghast or Crump in the Lesley Cup because they all played for Philadelphia or Pennsylvania. Well maybe he beat them anyway; those guys were all pretty stupid you know!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #169 on: October 05, 2010, 09:50:34 AM »
Tom,

When is the first time Merion's official club documents refer to Hugh Wilson in the context of the architecture of the East Course?

TEPaul

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #170 on: October 05, 2010, 09:51:41 AM »
"Tom,
Your sarcasm is a little wierd...keep in mind exactly who is telling the rest of us that something not written down by these guys is not supportable by any fact."


In your opinion, would it matter if Wilson wrote the report or if he just sat down with Lesley and told him what his committee had done that winter and spring and at NGLA? Don't forget, Lesley was not on that committee, he was just the chairman of the Golf Committee which apparently Wilson's committee served under.

By the way, as far as I can see the so-called Wilson Committee was never even mentioned in the MCC board meeting minutes. I guess that might mean it never actually existed, huh?

Maybe Tom MacWood has been right all along and everything about Merion is some massive work of fiction and fantasy like their Tolhurst history book. You've played Merion haven't you Sully? Are you absolutely sure about that? If you didn't write it down maybe you never actually did. I thought I'd played it a couple of hundred times but if I can't find where I wrote that maybe I never did.

And I never said that something not written down is not supportable by any fact, I only said it was not written or mentioned------viz that the Wilson Committee took their Merion plans to NGLA and worked on them there.

Moriarty seems to be saying that's a fact simply because it is impossible for him to imagine that they wouldn't have! And this is the same guy who keeps asking the rest of us to supply HIM with "verifiable facts!?"  ??? ;)

You should try reading his essay again. I read it again yesterday. The leaps in logic he makes and the fallacies he uses to make points and premises is truly hilarious at this point. If I wrote that essay I would either take it down or massively correct it simply to avoid future embarrassment!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 10:03:36 AM by TEPaul »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #171 on: October 05, 2010, 10:09:05 AM »
But you are arguing that the layout of Merion East was not the primary impetus for the trip to NGLA simply because it wasn't written down exactly that way by those guys right then.

In the context of what they were trying to accomplish in the late winter and spring of 1911...get the golf course routed and planned in detail so they could complete the transaction with HDC...how can you conclude that the entire committee (Wilson's Committee) took all that time to go to Southampton for anything other than the planning of Merion East?

Keep in mind, this is not an argument that they went empty handed and asked CBM to give them a golf course. I think they had a million ideas and were looking for some guidance out of them...

TEPaul

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #172 on: October 05, 2010, 10:13:11 AM »
"Tom,
When is the first time Merion's official club documents refer to Hugh Wilson in the context of the architecture of the East Course?"


Good question. I'll see if I can find that out for you next week when I get back from Boston.

Actually, a couple of weeks ago something pretty odd occured to me---to wit; there really isn't all that much information on the creation of the courses in the MCC meeting minutes, at least not as much as one might expect and one reason for that just might be that they may've been operating under the MCCGA which at that point was a full-blown Pennsylvania company with stock and a board of directors and a president. It was a separate entity and it was the entity that raised the money to pay for the courses. I'm wondering if they had board meetings and kept minutes and such. If that's true I don't know where those records are. Next week I think I might go to the Drexel University Library and ask them since Lloyd was a partner of Drexel Co and he was the president of the MCCGA corporation.

Wayne and I called Harrisburg a week or so ago and asked them if there is still a corporate registration for the MCCGA Corporation and unbelievably there still is!!

We told the lady it hadn't operted since 1942 and she said maybe they just never wrote the state and closed it down.  
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 10:15:57 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #173 on: October 05, 2010, 10:23:03 AM »
"But you are arguing that the layout of Merion East was not the primary impetus for the trip to NGLA simply because it wasn't written down exactly that way by those guys right then."


Sully:

For the last God-damned time I am only saying they never mentioned that the layout of Merion East was discussed or worked on when they went to NGLA. You know what they reported they talked about and did when they went up there, don't you?

Why don't you just leave it at that? But if you want to continue to speculate that's fine by me, I couldn't care less. You do have plenty of company on the art of speculation with the likes of MacWood and Moriarty.


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not to bring up a sore subject, but,
« Reply #174 on: October 05, 2010, 10:31:12 AM »
Wasn't it how to build holes on the land they have?

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