Not to bring up a sore subject, but,

[JESII]

Tom,

Can you elaborate on just how Lloyd acted as an "angel" for Merion through all this?

This question assumes that your use of the term "Angel" implies some financial consideration from him that he had no intention of recouping.

[TEPaul]

"This question assumes that your use of the term "Angel" implies some financial consideration from him that he had no intention of recouping."

Sully:

Good point there! That point alone may be a good reason to not assume Lloyd was a major angel to MCC and refer to him as that. Perhaps a better way to refer to him and what he did for MCC and HDC is the way you referred to him. What was it----master facilitator? But even with that you must admit the members of MCC did get land for a golf course and they got the course built without being directly assessed for it, and that alone may be something of the act of an angel on Lloyd's part.

On the other point of conflict of interest though, I just don't see that from what I have and what I know about what he did.

Nevertheless, I do think Merion should look into the details of what he did in 1910 and 1911 and write it up in detail if for nothing else at least as resource material for their impressive archives.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Your question about how "conflict of interest" has changed over the years is very easy to answer.

Years, if not decades, if not a century ago, a handshake took the place of a fifty page legal contract.

Men were "Men of their Word",  they didn't need fifty pages of weasel words to form a binding deal, a simple handshake was sufficient.

Today, with our super-sensitivity and politically correct atmoshphere, they'd run from that arrangement for fear of a couple of dozen law suits and tremendous financial liability.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Good for you. In your last post you "Got It." THOSE men back then could do deals with a handshake because they KNEW they could trust each other that way. A guy like Tom MacWood who probably really doesn't understand that world or its ethos wants to know if there was some kind of conflict of interest and keeps asking about that. Hopefully he will learn to understand it as you just articulated it and hopefully he will learn to not constantly ask questions like the ones he has about Lloyd and what he did for HDC and MCC in 1910 and 1911.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
It is always nice when an old codger like you can explain to us that world and its ethos, but I'm more interested in documented history. When did the concept of conflict of interest as a legal and ethical issue first come about, and how has it evolved over the years?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

I don't know. Maybe you should find a website on the history of law and ethics.

[JESII]

Tom Macwood,

What about this issue indicates to you that there was a conflict of interest? I'll be happy to answer any countering question you want after you answer this one. Thanks.

[JESII]

OK - I found your initial words on the subject, beginning with post #516.

The error you've made, which I believe clouds your judgement on Lloyd's role, is that prior to the club committing to buy this particular land (internally I might add) Lloyd was not an investor in HDC. It wasn't until after this committment that he engaged Connell and negotiated the deal.

[TEPaul]

Jim:

I note that Tom MacWood has yet to answer your question about exactly why he thinks Lloyd had a conflict of interest? Why do you suppose he does not answer that question?

[JESII]

I did just ask it about an hour or so ago, so I'll give him the benefit of doubt.

Why haven't you answered your phone?

[JESII]

Here's a question for you Tom Paul...do you think the fact that Lloyd was aggregating his estate just around the corner is evidence of a personal conflict of interest in his dealings with both MCC and HDC?

[TEPaul]

"Here's a question for you Tom Paul...do you think the fact that Lloyd was aggregating his estate just around the corner is evidence of a personal conflict of interest in his dealings with both MCC and HDC?"


Jim:

I do not.

What I think Lloyd did is recognize and facilitate a number of win/win/win situations for a number of people and interests even if they directly or indirectly benefited him with his estate on Cooperstown Rd which was not part of the HDC properties, as far as I know. Or at least it was not part of the 338.6 acres that was mentioned by MCC and HDC in their negotiations.

[JESII]

I agree with that. I think it's clear that a committee was involved every step of the way, so his personal desires would have been factored against any other proposals.

[Tom MacWood]

Jim
Do we know when Lloyd first became financially involved with HDC, and does it even matter? His search committee recommended the HDC proposal to the club, and he invested (before or after the recommendation) in HDC and benefited financially. No matter when he invested isn't that a conflict of interest?

[Tom MacWood]

I'm no legal expert so I'm relying on this defintion of COI:

A conflict of interest (COI) occurs when an individual or organization is involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt the motivation for an act in the other.

A conflict of interest can only exist if a person or testimony is entrusted with some impartiality; a modicum of trust is necessary to create it. The presence of a conflict of interest is independent from the execution of impropriety. Therefore, a conflict of interest can be discovered and voluntarily defused before any corruption occurs.

[JESII]

EDIT: we overlapped, but I posted anyway.




If I recommend to you that you buy a certain stock and eventually buy it myself, did I have a conflict of interest?

To me, the term carries a negative connotation. The conflicted party would presumably have made a different decision if not for an interest with one side or the other of a transaction. Maybe I have a poor definition, please post your definition if mine is bad.

The Evans letter shows that MCC had decided on the Ardmore land by July 1, 1910. Prior to that date, did Lloyd promote the Ardmore property at the expense of some other property?

[TEPaul]

"A conflict of interest (COI) occurs when an individual or organization is involved in multiple interests, one of which could possibly corrupt the motivation for an act in the other."


Tom MacWood:

How do you think what Lloyd apparently did for HDC and MCC corrupted his motivation or anyone else's motivation in one or the other of those entities and what they did together to create a golf club and a residential community next to it?

[Tom MacWood]

Jim
I don't think it matters if he promoted HDC at the expense of another property (we do know they looked at more than one site though). Isn't there is a perception of a conflict when his group promoted HDC and he later (or prior) invested in HDC.

[JESII]

I don't think so. Can I give you a stock tip and then buy it myself 4 months after you do and be conflicted?

[TEPaul]

"Isn't there is a perception of a conflict when his group promoted HDC and he later (or prior) invested in HDC."

Tom MacWood;

Of course there could be a perception of a conflict of interest and that was obviously why both MCC and Lloyd on his own went to the lengths they did explaining to the MCC membership that they were able to buy real estate for approximately one half the cost per acre to the entity that was selling it to them, and why Lloyd went to the lengths he did to explain to potential MCC subscribers to his HDC stock offering that potential subscribers were to be given the very same terms as the original subscribers.

Have these details in the MCC records I have provided to this site been lost on you somehow?

[JESII]

TEP,

The definition Macwood posted seems fair, and clearly does not require an act of impropriety for a "conflict of interest" to be present.

So what's his point? Why make the effort to strictly define COI and then ask if there's a "perceived COI"?

Any guesses?

I think he just wants to keep this on the front page...maybe he should ask if Ran will make a "Sticky Topic"...

[TEPaul]

"Any guesses?"

No.

I have no idea where MacWood thinks he's going with this one and I'm not interested. I'm quite sure I know a whole lot more than he does about the details of Lloyd's involvement with HDC and MCC and I've already said I do not see any evidence at all of any conflict of interest, so I'll just leave it at that.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP,

The definition Macwood posted seems fair, and clearly does not require an act of impropriety for a "conflict of interest" to be present.

So what's his point? Why make the effort to strictly define COI and then ask if there's a "perceived COI"?

Any guesses?

I think he just wants to keep this on the front page...maybe he should ask if Ran will make a "Sticky Topic"...

Did Lloyd tell the membership he was an investor in HDC?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Apparently you've never read the letter Lloyd sent to the membership on Nov. 15, 1910 or you didn't understand it. If you had you wouldn't keep asking that question on here.

[Tom MacWood]

The Nov. 15 letter is from Lloyd, and where does he reveal he is an investor?