[JESII]

Jim
The July report to the members said that Connell engaged Barker and Griscom engaged CBM. 

Exactly...and you're suggesting Lloyd engaged Barker. So you're saying they lied to the membership.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Fair enough in the slight twist I gave your question.

Still, my answer is "Because they wanted to."

If you have seen nothing suggesting the committee laid out the course with the help of CBM you aren't looking hard enough.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
I have never argued that Merion asked CBM to route or design Merion East. Can you acknowledge that? Why do you keep responding to me with that argument?"


Sully:

Sorry. Yes, of course I can acknowledge that. It's Moriarty who seems to be the only one who's ever argued that Macdonald routed and designed Merion East or that MCC ever asked him to do that. And even more far-fetched is MacWood who is the only one who has ever argued that HH Barker designed Merion East or that MCC or someone from MCC such as Lloyd ever asked Barker to do that.

It seems all that you have argued is that you think Wilson and his committee were probably out there routing and designing the course in 1910 and early than any of the records or club history ever mentioned.

[TEPaul]

"I asked why they would chose an inexperienced untested insurance salesman over the two experts they had already engaged....it makes absolutely no sense."


Tom MacWood:

That is probably not an unreasonable question for a casual observer to ask. Apparently Hugh I. Wilson had a whole lot more ability, talent and perhaps experience than someone like you suspects and apparently MCC knew and fully understood that, otherwise it probably wouldn't make all that much sense that they selected him to chair the committee that designed and created Merion's East and West courses.

[JESII]

Tom,

To be fair, I would argue with your and Mike's tact of minimizing the "advice and suggestions" CBM gave considering the timing of his visits and the words used by Wilson and Committee to describe them.

No, I cannot exactly quantify what I think may have been done, but as of April 19th, 1911 CBM probably contributed as much as any single person involved up to that point...other than Lloyd's land transactions.

[TEPaul]

"While I think its ludicrous for TePaul to suggest they didn't talk about the Merion design,"


Jeffrey:

I never suggested that. All I have said is they never recorded or mentioned that they spoke to Macdonald about their plans for Merion East while at NGLA for that two day visit. If you can find any contemporaneous record or mention or implication that they did that then please show it to me and I'd be more than willing to acknowledge it.

As to what they did do and what they did discuss while there can be found in that Wilson Report I made available on here about a year and a half ago.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

The record is what the record is and you are right that it doesn't specifically say they talked of Merions plans.  In fact, it implies they gathered info and went back and prepared five routing plans, and invited CBM back to approve one.

While we don't know exactly what happened, the overriding goal was get useful info.  And, in fact, based on my experience, it would likely be very difficult for a group like that to start a routing in a large meeting.  If I were in that situation, I think I would work better alone after I got back from the meeting, much like Francis was looking at it alone in his home late one night and came up with his land swap idea.

But, all of that is spliting hairs and speculating a bit beyond what the record did record.  It is maddenling short of detail for this group.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

To be fair, I would argue with your and Mike's tact of minimizing the "advice and suggestions" CBM gave considering the timing of his visits and the words used by Wilson and Committee to describe them.

No, I cannot exactly quantify what I think may have been done, but as of April 19th, 1911 CBM probably contributed as much as any single person involved up to that point...other than Lloyd's land transactions."


Sully:

It's fine with me if you think that but I just don't. And I do know the way these things can go, at least the time involved in it and what it means.

A good example may be the Ardrossan project. What I learned during those two years from Bill Coore about golf course architecture, the principles behind it all at least how he sees them and practices them was absolutely incalcuable to me, and even more so in some retrospect.

But he did not design the golf course that was put in front of the heirs to Ardrossan Farm and Gulph Mills GC to consider and vote on doing. He certainly had plenty of input with some actual direct drawings and suggestions but he did not route and design that golf course.

I have never really thought of it before but the time did come when Ardrossan and my club decided to meet at Ardrossan and discuss it and put it to a decision to go forward or not. The primary heirs (and lawyer) of the Montgomery Scott family showed up at Ardrossan to meet with my board of directors.

At that point all I had was what I used to refer to as "the composite." I drew it (amateurish as that may've been but it was clear on a 1-200 topo map) and I still have it.

Right at that time it seems like I was seeing Bill as much at the Hidden Creek project or even the Friars Head project as at Ardrossan and on the way back from Hidden Creek to the Philly airport I told him they were going to meet and that I had to show them something. I had it in the back seat of the car and I showed it to him and he looked at it for the next hour before we arrived at the Philly airport. Before he got out and caught a plane home to Phoenix I asked him what I should do at the meeting and he said; "Give them this just as it is, it's good, and if changes need to be made for whatever reason we can deal with that when the time comes."

Of course this was before anything was even submitted for permitting but it is what I took to the meeting to show my club and Ardrossan Farm what GMGC wanted to do there, and it was what was in front of them all to analyze and vote on.

I don't have much doubt that the day at Ardmore on April 6, 1911 with the Wilson Committee nd Macdonald and Whigam went something like that drive from Hidden Creek to the Philly airport with Bill Coore except that Bill Coore had one helluva lot more familiarity with Ardrossan at that point than Macdonald/Whigam ever possibly could have with the Ardemore site (only have seen it for two days over a period of ten months). They showed Macdonald and Whigam the five different plans they had done and they all went over them apparently on the ground and Macdonald selected one and we know what he said about it.

I do know that there is no way Macdonald and Whigam could've routed and designed Merion East in a day and if they showed him five different plans on April 6, 1911 there is no way at all there could've been any kind of developed routing done by someone else in the previous year that they used and submitted to the board on April 19, 1911. If there had been then why in the world did they report they showed him five different plans on April 6. 1911?

[TEPaul]

"But, all of that is spliting hairs and speculating a bit beyond what the record did record.  It is maddenling short of detail for this group."


Jeff:

I have seen a whole lot of club archives and their material for significant courses of this era and frankly that Wilson Committee report is about as definitive as I have ever seen. If you've seen one that is more so please tell me what it is.

But for THIS CROWD as you call it everything will probably be short on detail. This is what I told MacWood when he began all this nonsense about Merion East when he started a thread back in Feb. 2003 entitled "Re: Macdonald and Merion."

He wanted to know who did what specifically in real detail and I told him that was just not recorded and it almost never is. He did not listen then and he doesn't listen now.

I chalk the reason for that with MacWood and Moriatry up to the fact they have just never spent much time in the field or with architects in this process of projects.
 
 

[Dan Herrmann]

Let me propose an idea that just popped into my head.

1.  Oakmont is built and becomes the greatest course in Pennsylvania.  Fownes is a total success.
2.  The men of Merion see the success at Oakmont and try to learn from its lessons.   They want to build the Commonwealth's greatest club.
3.  Like Oakmont, Merion decides to design the course themselves.

Could it have been that simple - the Men of Merion were influenced by Fownes's success at Oakmont?

(from the Oakmont history page at their website:
H.C. Fownes, unlike other wealthy golf movers and shakers of his day, wasn’t looking for a high society playground when he decided to build his own course. He wasn’t trying to create a monument to himself. He was just looking for a fight. The courses in the Pittsburgh area, like most in the United States, were better suited to polite tea-party golf. So H.C. would have to build his own.
The quest was on. A friend found some nice, open farmland rolling over the gentle hills above Oakmont Borough, about 14 miles east of Pittsburgh. H.C., having put together an investment group, bought the land. The work started in the fall of 1903, and play began in the summer of 1904)

I'm probably being naive, but doesn't that sound like what Merion Golf Club would be after post-split from MCC?

(back to lurking)

[Phil_the_Author]

Jeff,

"It is maddeningly short of detail for this group." And there in lies the problem... The real answer is that what was written wasn't written for this group but for a single group, the members of Merion at the time it was written. Every course history is written for that same type of audience and so will always fall "maddeningly short of detail for this group."

[Mike Cirba]

Holy cow...I'm really glad I was playing golf today. 

If CBM had designed Merion, the members would have been very proud of that fact, rightfully so, and would have been very happy to proclaim such at every opportunity.

Furthermore, when they were making major changes and enhancements to their course in 1915 they certainly would have invited back the creator of the golf course for his input and again in 1924 when they changed the routing significantly they would have asked him, don't you think?  After all, you wouldn't just disregard his creation so much a decade after it opened to completly change seveal holes without even giving him the coirtesy of a phone call, right!

And again in 1930, in preparation for other major tournaments you again don't make routing changes without consulting the proud papa of the course, do you?  After all, by that time the club had hosted 3 us ams on the course and was preparing to host a us open...certainly at some point you are going to bring back the proud papa, or at least mention to someone, somewhere who the real father is or someone should be screaming for a dna test!

How about the west course?  After CBM's east course turned out so well, wouldn't it make sense to have him come back down for the other 18?  Why give it to that grass guy wilson?  That makes no sense.  Surely they could have gotten CBM back down to design that one in a couple of hours as well, or perhaps if Barker was riding thru town he could have stopped for a beer and a routing and wouldn't the club be way ahead of the game?

I haven't read anyrhing since my post this morning but its crazy to think that if CBM or Barker had designed merion someone from the club wouldn't have thought to mention it, ever.

Sorry, but that's crazy talk.

[DMoriarty]

Dan Herrmann,

Rather than stretching for ABCBM and relying on whatever might pop into your head, perhaps you might consider the historical record, which leaves no doubt about who and what influenced Merion.
- When it came to figuring out whether the land Merion would produce a first class course, Merion turned to Macdonald and Whigham, not Fownes.
- And when it came to planning the layout Merion's Committee traveled to NGLA (not Oakmont) so that Macdonald and Whigham (not Fownes) could explain to them how the course should be laid out on Merion's land.  
- And when it came to finalizing the layout plan a few weeks after the NGLA trip, Merion again brought in Macdonald and Whigham to again go over the land, and Macdonald and Whigham determined the final layout plan.  So far as I know, Fownes was nowhere to be found.
- And when it came getting Merion Board's final approval so they could begin construction, the final layout plan was presented to the Board as the plan chosen and approved by Macdonald and Whigham.  Hugh Wilson was not even mentioned.  So far as I know, neither was Fownes.  
- And before the course opened and even before Wilson had returned from overseas, it had already been reported that many of the holes were based on the great holes abroad, not on Oakmont.
- And before the course opened but after Wilson had returned from his trip and had discussed the course with Findlay, Findlay strongly suggested that a number of the holes had been laid out by Macdonald.
- And when the course opened it was reported that most of them were based upon the great holes overseas.
- And when it came time for the club to publicly introduce the course, they listed CBM and HJW -- not Fownes -- as advisors to their committee in charge of laying out the course.

Rather than looking west to Oakmont, Merion realized from the beginning the great value of C.B. Macdonald's advice and they sought it out and followed it at every turn, from choosing the land, to growing grass, to finalizing the routing.

By the way, I don't think that Oakmont was even considered to be a top course before around 1911.   If it was considered a top course before then, I'd like to see the support for this.    

But perhaps you are familiar with parts of the historical record I have not yet seen?

1)   What does the historical record say about Oakmont's influence on the initial creation of Merion?

2)   What of all these references to Macdonald, Whigham, NGLA, and copying the great holes abroad?

3)   If Merion was emulating Oakmont, then why would Wilson and his Committee traveled to NGLA a few weeks before they would begin building the course?   Wrong train?

4)  And why did Hugh Wilson and Alan Wilson both gush about how much CBM and Whigham had helped them and not even mention poor Fownes?    

_____________________________________


As for the rest of these posts and the continued effort to diminish CBM and HJW's influence, it is actually pretty humorous.   Why is it exactly that they went to NGLA if it wasn't to work on the layout?     And why again did they drag CBM and HJW back down to Merion?   Imagine CBM's shock and surprise when he got down to Merion in April of 1911 . . .

What's all this??  I thought we traveled all the way down here for tea, but it looks like you are trying to plan a golf course, and on the exact land you had me inspect last summer!!   Ohhhh . . . so that is why you showed up on my doorstep a few weeks ago, asking all of those general and not-Merion-specific questions about laying out golf courses!   And I thought you were just curious.    What's that?  Sure I'll help, but I wish you had mentioned you were planning a course while we were all at NGLA a few weeks ago.   Henry and I might have been to provide some suggestions and advice as to the lay out of Merion East.   Who knows, it might have been of the greatest help and value.

____________________________

Mike Cirba,

If you haven't read anything, then what possible point could you post have except for more blind propaganda?

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Did you introduce new factual evidence and I missed it?

Anything that shows cbm did anything...anything at all for merion in the time period from july 1910 until march 1911?

If not, I'm quite certain I don't need to read anything, but thanks.

[JESII]

I know this will cause a shitstorm around these parts, but there really is a hell of alot more evidence of CBM contributing up through April 1911 than there is of Wilson contributing...how do you explain that?

My recollection is that the report read to the board on April 19th was read by Lesley...is it proven that Wilson wrote it on behalf of his committee for Lesley to report to the board as chairman of the golf committee?

[Tom MacWood]

Jim
The July report to the members said that Connell engaged Barker and Griscom engaged CBM.  

Exactly...and you're suggesting Lloyd engaged Barker. So you're saying they lied to the membership.

Jim
Yes, I am suggesting Lloyd engaged both CBM and Barker. I don't think he lied to the membership (naming intermediaries), but I also don't think he told them the entire story. In July did he reveal to the membership he was heavily involved with the HDC?

HDC and MCC had similar interests, and Lloyd was heavily influential with both parties, and hiring an inexperienced, untested, insurance salesman to design their golf course does not make any sense, especially when he had already engaged arguably the two top men in America.

[Dan Herrmann]

David,
Oakmont is, what, about 10 (ish) years older than Merion?  Merion had a fair number of Pennsylvania RR members, right?  

If they had traveled to Oakmont, it wouldn't have been a big deal.  I doubt it would have ever been documented.  

Over and out.

(And what in the world would give you the crazy idea that I would have access to historical records?  Let's see - I did have bagels at a Bruegger's about a mile from Merion this summer...  In the interest of full documentation, I drove down US30 from here and had a cinnamon/raisin bagel with skim milk.  Laura had an onion bagel with butter and OJ.  Hmmm..  The plot thickens....)

[Mike Cirba]

Ok, because I'm sitting alone in a bar in Boston, I decided to read todays posts and sad to say it occurred to me that this site is getting wackier than those online discussion groups of conspiracy theorists saying lyndon johnson killed kenndedy and elvis was merely abducted by aliens and yes, he'll be back folks, not having aged a day! 

Those conspiratorialists don't care that the single-bullet theory as since been scientifically proven, and wouldn't believe the king is dead if they exhumed his skeleton and took dna from the last remaining strands of his pompadour...they want to believe that the truth isn't something they won't let their minds believe, or have developesd some odd reputation among some clique fringe group of common believers and don't want to give up that dubious notoriety.

Its all so silly, but this will go on simply because its admittedly tough to read this nonsense and not respond...I really need to do a better job at that, personally.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Your most recent post attempts to divert and dilute serious discussion.

For you to think that an entire committee traveled from Philadelphia to Southampton for two days in March, 1911, for anything other than the express purpose of discussing the design of Merion is illogical.

The trip to Southampton was SOLELY about Merion ?

Why else would they go as a group ?

But, getting back to my original issues,

Had Dr Toulman ever been to the UK prior to March, 1911

We know that Wilson, the Chairman, the most influential on the committee had not.

What about the others ?

Rodman Griscom  ?
HG Lloyd  ?
Richard Francis ?

Let's divide and conquer.
Let's analyze each of the other committee member's experience with courses of the UK PRIOR to March of 1911.
By doing so we can either elevate or eliminate their contributions relative to the great holes in the UK and their connection with Merion.

It's clear that some of the holes at Merion were intended to emulate holes from the UK.

Then, how did the committee become imbued with the knowledge about the great holes in the UK ?
 
Was it SOLELY from CBM, or their personal experiences, or both

Before answering, we have to ascertain their personal experiences

So, let's start with Dr Harry Toulmin.
It appears that he visited Europe, (Not necessarily the UK) AFTER the March , 1911 meeting.
Is there any evidence that he travled to the UK PRIOR to the March, 1911 meeting ?

[Tom MacWood]

Ok, because I'm sitting alone in a bar in Boston...

Better luck next time.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

So you are saying regaling the single chicks with tales of the Merion Creation story is not the way to go in a bar? Damn,
I thought I had found my own version of the "Line of Charm."  Guess not and now I know why I go home alone.........sad to say, but its the most logical (and intentionally funny) thing you have said on this thread.

[Tom MacWood]

There are a multitude of interesting topics and I normally try to avoid golf architecture when talking to friends, family and strangers.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

A serious question in the "get to know you" mode...what are some of your fave non gca topics?

[Mike Cirba]

TMac,

Thanks for the humor.   I don't agree with your theories but I like you, whether you care or not.

I'm here to find any remnants of Willie Campbell at a few places and need to stay focused.  Female company will only distract me at this point from a more important mission.

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,

A serious question in the "get to know you" mode...what are some of your fave non gca topics?

It depends whom I am talking to: art, religion, travel, ancestry, music, eyes, etc.

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