Norman re: masters changes

[Richard_Goodale]

http://www.shark.com/play/golf/go_opinion.cfm?objectid=1705

The Shark makes a fairly good case for the changes to Augusta, IMHO.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

Are you trying to say that the Shark knows more about Augusta and the changes than some of the guys on this site ?

[Richard_Goodale]

Patrick Mucci

Of course not!  We on this site have read and re-read and digested and regurgitated and re-digested all of the sound bites and clandestine photos.  What does Greg know?  He's just a highly skilled golfer who happens to have played the course 100+ times.

Cheers

Rich

[Ran Morrissett]

While it is interesting to gain a professional golfer's perspective as to what he will now be considering from several of the new tees, I am not entirely clear why Norman thinks the work was "exceptional."

His rationale seems to be in part that because he now has to hit driver on holes #7 and #14 to have a short iron into the greens and he has to hit a driver to be able to reach the 13th in two, that the design work was well thought out - is that correct?

If so, I disagree, especially about the 7th. A short, tempting par four adds a lot to any course and at 365 yards, some pros would be trying to get into the greenside bunkers off the tee with the hope of an up and down birdie - heck maybe they could pull it off to and I would sure enjoy watching'em try, especially after their first bunker shot stayed in or went 20 feet above the hole   Then, you would see the kind of fireworks that The Masters is known for.

Instead, the new tee insures that the hole will play as a conventional two shotter. While that's OK, such changes only make the course less unique, and again, reduce the chance of great drama.

One question: Greg mentions that Fazio adjusted the fairways a couple of times in his article, especially the 18th - what does he mean by that?

I also enjoyed reading Fazio's comment in Geoff's 2001 article which follows Greg's - "We wanted to do something to define the golf hole. When you look down the first fairway you can really see where to hit the ball. Any time you design a course, you want to frame the hole. If you have a picture, and the frame doesn't work, then you get a new frame. If anything, I think the second cut may help the golfer line up some."

Given MacKenzie/Jones's shared loved of The Old Course, and given that The Old Course is the LEAST framed course in the world, it highlights for the umpteenth time that the changes  in recent memory were done with no consideration to the original design philosophy. The quote also highlights Geoff's point that Fazio is a curious selection for such work.

This is definitely a tired topic but I am always amazed that the thoughts of MacKenzie/Jones don't deserve better a) consideration and b) treatment from the members of ANGC.

Cheers,

[Daniel Wexler]

...And who's recently received a special invitation to play.

NOT a knock on Norman, of whom I've always been a fan.  But IF he didn't like the changes, you can hardly expect him to say so right about now.

DW

[Tim_Weiman]

Rich Goodale:

I'm well aware that Greg Norman is a very good golfer.  In fact, if I were to chose the single round that anyone has played in a major championship that impressed me the most, it would probably be Norman at Royal St. Georges.

Nonetheless, I found his comments on Augusta very disappointing.  He is sending a message that spending loads of money changing golf courses to accomodate new technology is the way to go.

That makes no sense for 99.9% of the golfing public.

Augusta National and Greg Norman have set a bad example.

I hope Hootie Johnson's recent comments point to better days ahead.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

I heard an interesting statistic that I am trying to get a copy of.  Basically, it revealed that college golfers at an NCAA event were hitting the ball 12 yards further, on average, then the touring pros statistical average.  Granted the conditions may have been vastly different, but if there is any merit to the statistical values, how can the values of Jones/McKenzie be preserved in that environment on an existing golf course ?

Almost Universally, the narrowing of Augusta's fairways was criticized.  The greens, with their contours and slopes are probably near the maximum speed for putting purposes, so what other avenue is open ?

I would assume that you, me, and others want to retain the greens in their current form, that we want to retain the greenside bunkering in its current form, so what is left ?

Do you advocate the placement of a new series of bunkers between 280 and 325 yards from the tees ?

It's a problem today, or at least this April, and it will continue to be a problem into the future until a prudent solution is invented and implemented.

Norman's statement about the quantum leap in distance in the last five (5) years is important, but, what will the next five (5) years bring ?

When the standard, the goal in the sport continues to be diminished, interest will be lost by fans and players alike.

ANGC has the opportunity to take the first step, with the tacit approval of the USGA, toward solving this ongoing problem.  I hope they do it for numerous reasons, but especially for the good and survivability of the game.

[Richard_Goodale]

Tim

To me, adding new back tees is not changing the golf course.  You and I can still play the old 6800 yards tees when Hootie gives us our invite--with the "Masters (TM)" ball, hopefully.......

Cheers

Rich

[A_Clay_Man]

The articles subtext seemed to be motivated by the fact that Mr. Norman will probably get some of those refurbishing jobs he says all the courses will have to go through. And that Fabulous line, shows that gregg is playing the game.

Political posturing no doubt?

[Tim_Weiman]

Rich Goodale:

The never ending pursuit of absolute length reminds me of the frog who doesn't jump out of boiling water because the heat was gradually turned up.

Building an extra back tee or two doesn't get me that excited.  But, to date Augusta has contributed to the view that we should just keep making everything longer, no matter how much money it costs.

Dealing with the ball is a far cheaper and better alternative.

[Richard_Goodale]

Tim

My understanding is that the "boiling frog" syndrome is, alas, an urban myth.  The frog will, in fact, jump out of the water when it gets too hot.  When are those blue jackets going to start to feel the heat.....?

[Tim_Weiman]

Rich Goodale:

I hope soon!

[Jamie Duffner]

"Augusta was just taking a bit of a defensive stance, trying to defend the golf course from the young guys that fly the ball 325-plus yards. "

Is it just me or is this hyperbole to justify the changes?  325-plus carry?  Let's see add another 20 - 30 yards of roll and all these young guys hit it 355!?!  By that logic, then all they did was make it easy for these bombing young guns to win the Masters!?!?

I agree with Ran, the change to 7 is perhaps the worst.  Now it's simply a 3 wood - wedge. Thankfully they left the 3rd hole alone, perhaps the best short par 4 in the US.  What's with the token 10 yards on 10? A waste of time and dirt.  

[BillV]

"Augusta was just taking a bit of a defensive stance, trying to defend the golf course from the young guys that fly the ball 325-plus yards. "

Is it just me or is this hyperbole to justify the changes?  325-plus carry?  Let's see add another 20 - 30 yards of roll and all these young guys hit it 355!?!

For what it is worth:

On 18 at Doral yesterday, they had the tees up 20 yds because of "the wind".  Hitting it hard to avoid the neck of the fairway, Eldrick Woods hit it 346 and Ernesto Els hit it 357, leaving about 100 and 89 respectively in.  (Neither made 3, though).  Lest anyone doubt those numbers, it is probably impossible to really get Doral's fairways firm.  

p.s.  Els swing didn't even reach parallel!  Sheeeesh!

[Justin_Zook]

Personally, I don't mind the extra yardage where it is needed.  13 is a great example.  When the shortest players are hitting 5 iron into the green, something should change.  I personally think it was too easy, and now I think it will be fun to see the players hit 3 iron or 3 wood again.  I will enjoy seeing players succeed and fail again.  I agree that 7 shouldn't have been touched.  I think the hole could have actually been improved by shortening it to maybe 350 or maybe 355.  Let Tiger hit it in there.  From what I've seen on TV a bunker shot from below that green would be very difficult.  Some of the lengthening though, is outrageous.  Is there any chance that they would eliminate the rough?  I also agree that a regulation ball would be a much more economical solution to the so called "distance problem".  I don't think it will happen unless Hootie grows a backbone.  While I've never met the man, he seems like a man who kisses a lot of arse.  I wouldn't expect him to be able to stand up to the criticism that would follow after making such a decision.  So the changes that need made are this, remove all rough, use the competition ball, or make stricter requirements for the ones that are used now, and shorten the holes that are too long for the competition ball.