A turn of a phrase, a tilt of a green...

[George Pazin]

In many ways, this thread is directed at the architects out there, but I'd appreciate it if anyone interested would comment.

I was reading Motherless Brooklyn a few months ago, following the deserving accolades on a What Are You Reading? thread, and I was noting the beautiful prose Mr. Lethem shares. In particular, I read the following passage and was struck by its beauty:

Still, we'd begun to function as a team - demanding physical work contained its own truths, and we explored them despite ourselves.

[As an aside, it's quite obvious from the behavior of some on here that mental works attaches no such reflection...]

This deep sentence has held my interest for many months. Never ever would I have captured so much thought in such a manner, so succinctly.

So I then thought about my favorite topic, golf course architecture. How many times have you been confronted with something that flat out stunned you? Something that made you think, wow, I wouldn't have thought of that!

For me, I was struck by this thought on the very first hole at Oakmont - I had never seen a more natural green at the end of a hole, particularly a downhill hole. My thoughts on this topic were recently jolted when reading a bit of what Tom D posted in the thread about the courses in FL with C&C - he mentioned Bill Coore built a green in a far different manner than what he would have, given the circumstance.

So for the architects: When have you come across something on a course that surprised you, that you probably wouldn't have seen or done? It can be in a good or bad way.

And for everyone else, what holes have you played that stunned you? (Apologies if that's too strong of a word, can't think of a better one right now.)

[Dan Kelly]

And for everyone else, what holes have you played that stunned you? (Apologies if that's too strong of a word, can't think of a better one right now.)

September 1996. Sand Hills GC. Holes 1 through 18. I'd never seen anything like any of them. That was the first time I'd entertained the possibility that golf course architecture could be an art form.

I had the same sort of feeling I got earlier this year, when, finally, I got around to reading J.D. Salinger's "Nine Stories." They read like an entirely new genre of writing. Reminded me of nothing I'd ever seen before.

I started "Motherless Brooklyn," but didn't finish it -- no fault of the book. Thanks for the reminder.

[Phil_the_Author]

After more than 400 trips around Bethpage Black I am still amazed at what Tilly did with the 4th hole. During that time period if one could see a good hole down a valley that's where it most often went. Standing down on the original lower tee it is quite evident that the valley that follows the lay of the land down the left side would make for a very good par-4. Most would have run it down there with the natural 5th hole following the valley to where the green sits now. Tilly didn't. He chose to drive up to a plateau that then ran back down hill and from there back up onto an even higher plateau.

Consider his options and then look at what he decided upon. He certainly could have made a great par-4 by placing the green at the edge of the second plateau above the glacier bunker. Fromthere he also would now turn the 5th into a fabulous par-5 by playng from all the way back there as well. Tilly, though, chose to set his green on the very top and edge of the landform creating atrue three-shotter which, although reachable by many a long-hitter in two, because the green runs downhill and away from the second shot it is the poorest of decisions to go for it in two.

He also had the option of routing the course through the many acres of land that the state owns up on this same plateau and right of the hole. He chose to go back down the valley.

The result, one of the great par-5s and par-4s in the world, conceivably the best 5 followed by a 4 that there is anywhere. These two remarkables holes created because he could so what others simply couldn't... I will always be stunned by the view through the trees when standing on the 3rd green because of the incredible beauty, complexity and challenge that follows...

[Phil McDade]

George:

This one maybe wasn't stunning, but I was taken aback by its utter simplicity:

First this, a pretty routine-looking par 4 doglegging slightly to the left over flat terrain:



and then this...



...just a small green, probably no more than 2,500 sq ft., sitting at the end of the fairway, really an extension of the fairway terrain mown to green height, with a slight back-to-front tilt. I think there is much to be admired about greens like this -- I know this board has its share of fans of over-the-top greens (Ballyneal, Tobacco Road, a few others mentioned oftened), but simple things like this deserve their own accolades.

It's the 5th hole of Tweedie's Flossmoor in suburban Chicago.

[Sean Leary]

George,

I will have you know that this thread has been nominated for "Beardpullers Thread of the Year" at the Beardies Awards coming up in the spring at Pacific Grove.

More details to follow...

[George Pazin]

George,

I will have you know that this thread has been nominated for "Beardpullers Thread of the Year" at the Beardies Awards coming up in the spring at Pacific Grove.

More details to follow...

Woo Hoo!! I have so many to thank, should I pull off a miracle...

[Mike Benham]

George,

I will have you know that this thread has been nominated for "Beardpullers Thread of the Year" at the Beardies Awards coming up in the spring at Pacific Grove.

More details to follow...

Woo Hoo!! I have so many to thank, should I pull off a miracle...

Perhaps you could start a grassroots campaign for votes, sell T-shirts to raise money for the cause: 

"Have you stroked your Beardy today?"

"I'm a 20 hdcp golfer, but a scratch Beardy"

[Bill_McBride]

I think the two most surprising things I've seen came from my first trip to Scotland:

First, the infinite variety of the ways you could play the Old Course, culminating with #14,

Second, the unique holes at North Berwick coming home.  #1 was a hoot, followed by 11 reasonably normal holes, followed by #13 Pit   , #14 Perfection   , #15 Redan   , #16 Gate   , and finally a virtual replica of the home hole at St Andrews that I played the day before.

I really couldn't wait to return.

[Greg Ohlendorf]

Phil,

I really appreciate your thought's on Flossmoor's 5th. One of my favorites, where par is always a good score.

Greg

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

The 18th at Yale...

It's the first hole that I have ever come across which is truly a puzzle in the best sense of the word.  I know many who dislike the hole but I love it because it is so difficult to determine the best course of action.  It demands thought, imagination, discipline, execution and a little bit of luck.  It also looks nothing like any hole I have ever played before or since.  It left me wanting to play the course again just to take another crack at it.

It also has the perfect name - Odyssey.

A article with a different opinion but some good pictures

http://www.golfcommunityreviews.com/current-articles/raynor-shine-yale-golf-club-excites-senses-but-18th-leaves-you-numb.html

The hole also illustrates that Seth and Charlie could come up with a great original hole design when the opportunity presented itself.

[Kevin Lynch]

After more than 400 trips around Bethpage Black I am still amazed at what Tilly did with the 4th hole. During that time period if one could see a good hole down a valley that's where it most often went. Standing down on the original lower tee it is quite evident that the valley that follows the lay of the land down the left side would make for a very good par-4. Most would have run it down there with the natural 5th hole following the valley to where the green sits now. Tilly didn't. He chose to drive up to a plateau that then ran back down hill and from there back up onto an even higher plateau.

Consider his options and then look at what he decided upon. He certainly could have made a great par-4 by placing the green at the edge of the second plateau above the glacier bunker. Fromthere he also would now turn the 5th into a fabulous par-5 by playng from all the way back there as well. Tilly, though, chose to set his green on the very top and edge of the landform creating atrue three-shotter which, although reachable by many a long-hitter in two, because the green runs downhill and away from the second shot it is the poorest of decisions to go for it in two.

He also had the option of routing the course through the many acres of land that the state owns up on this same plateau and right of the hole. He chose to go back down the valley.

The result, one of the great par-5s and par-4s in the world, conceivably the best 5 followed by a 4 that there is anywhere. These two remarkables holes created because he could so what others simply couldn't... I will always be stunned by the view through the trees when standing on the 3rd green because of the incredible beauty, complexity and challenge that follows...

+1

[michael damico]

The 18th at Yale...

It's the first hole that I have ever come across which is truly a puzzle in the best sense of the word.  I know many who dislike the hole but I love it because it is so difficult to determine the best course of action.  It demands thought, imagination, discipline, execution and a little bit of luck.  It also looks nothing like any hole I have ever played before or since.  It left me wanting to play the course again just to take another crack at it.

It also has the perfect name - Odyssey.

The hole also illustrates that Seth and Charlie could come up with a great original hole design when the opportunity presented itself.

couldn't agree with you more...


I was fortunate enough to get around to Yale and Friar's Head in the same week, and NGLA, Sebonac and PV in another week a month later. For me, walking around NGLA is IT in America. Sahara (no. 2) and Alps (no. 3) had an incredibly familiar feel of what I had witnessed at Yale (no. 3 and 18).

[George Pazin]

After more than 400 trips around Bethpage Black I am still amazed at what Tilly did with the 4th hole. During that time period if one could see a good hole down a valley that's where it most often went. Standing down on the original lower tee it is quite evident that the valley that follows the lay of the land down the left side would make for a very good par-4. Most would have run it down there with the natural 5th hole following the valley to where the green sits now. Tilly didn't. He chose to drive up to a plateau that then ran back down hill and from there back up onto an even higher plateau.

Consider his options and then look at what he decided upon. He certainly could have made a great par-4 by placing the green at the edge of the second plateau above the glacier bunker. Fromthere he also would now turn the 5th into a fabulous par-5 by playng from all the way back there as well. Tilly, though, chose to set his green on the very top and edge of the landform creating atrue three-shotter which, although reachable by many a long-hitter in two, because the green runs downhill and away from the second shot it is the poorest of decisions to go for it in two.

He also had the option of routing the course through the many acres of land that the state owns up on this same plateau and right of the hole. He chose to go back down the valley.

The result, one of the great par-5s and par-4s in the world, conceivably the best 5 followed by a 4 that there is anywhere. These two remarkables holes created because he could so what others simply couldn't... I will always be stunned by the view through the trees when standing on the 3rd green because of the incredible beauty, complexity and challenge that follows...

Thanks, Phil, outstanding post, exactly the sort of insight I was hoping for when I started the thread.

The 18th at Yale...

It's the first hole that I have ever come across which is truly a puzzle in the best sense of the word.  I know many who dislike the hole but I love it because it is so difficult to determine the best course of action.  It demands thought, imagination, discipline, execution and a little bit of luck.  It also looks nothing like any hole I have ever played before or since.  It left me wanting to play the course again just to take another crack at it.

It also has the perfect name - Odyssey.

A article with a different opinion but some good pictures

http://www.golfcommunityreviews.com/current-articles/raynor-shine-yale-golf-club-excites-senses-but-18th-leaves-you-numb.html

The hole also illustrates that Seth and Charlie could come up with a great original hole design when the opportunity presented itself.

Thanks, Geoffrey, excellent post on a semi-controversial hole.