Old Marsh - Old Mounds ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCrosby2,

In all fairness to Pete Dye, Donald Ross never had a site like this.  Underwater, swamp.  Donald Ross never had the environmental and regulatory agencies dictating policy and restricting the movement of a yard of dirt, or the cutting down of three trees.  The reclamation mandates that allowed Old Marsh to be built were beyond anything the golden agers encountered.  I suspect, if the course had been named,
Old Swamp, the home marketing process might have been severly hampered.

This course was built out of water land, as opposed to courses that create water on the land, so water has to be everywhere.  Pete Dye was also forced to create marsh/swamp exponentially for every acre of fairway/rough  
he built.  Seventeen of the eighteen holes have water, but that is a function of the land and the regulatory mandates.

You should also be aware that Pete Dye was forced to drain the golf course by not allowing most, if not any surface water from running into the adjacent swamps, canals and waterlands.  The inverted catch basins collect the water which is then recyled.  A dilema Donald Ross and other golden agers would be unable to solve, hence none of them could have built Old Marsh, it was a feat beyond their abilities.

Add the hostile site, environmental constraints and unique engineering required to build this course and I think you'd have to conceed that any comparison with golden age courses or architects is flawed if not invalid.

With respect to your friends, I'd have to ask what their handicaps were and what tees they played, members, championship or tour.  As you know, there is a dramatic difference, and If someone chooses to bite off more than they can chew, Old Marsh is not the prudent venue for such a decision.

The fairways at Old Marsh are 50 to 70 yards wide, and in some cases, containment mounds add to those numbers by further restricting run on the ball.  The first time I played Old Marsh my host bet me on how many balls I would lose, he lost,
I lost none.  If you want to gamble, take the risk in return for the reward, the water will be in play, but if you play conservative, the water is almost totally, yes totally out of play, with the exception of the par 3's.

The green contours are also interesting, as are the off green chipping areas.

I never indicated that I had an affection for the mounds at Old Marsh, but I didn't find them as objectionable as others might, especially others who frequent this site from time to time.

Let me try to address your individual criticisms on a hole by hole basis.

# 1  The mound fronting the right side of the green adds an
       option, do I fly it at the pin, if it's on the right, or do I
       go to the opening, leaving me a longer putt ?  Since
       this hole is a driver sand wedge or wedge for me from
       the championship and tour tees, I don't find that an
       unnecessary burden.  You have a short shot, and have
       a choice, run it up the center to left side, or fly it to
       the right side.

       What you may have missed is the critical importance of
       the tee shot.  If you flirt with the left side bunker and
       water, you are left a wide open shot into the green, and
       the mound never comes into play.  It only effects those
       who have chosen the safer option off the tee, thus I
       think it's a great feature.

# 5  Pete Dye tried to replicate greensite of the 17th at
       Prestwick on this hole, and he did a good job.  There is  
       water to the right of the green, and the huge mound in
       front of the green has a directional rock, just like at
       Prestwick.  It is a relatively short hole, requiring a
       wedge, so I don't find it as onerous.  When the wind
       blows, and it's going to blow, just play the hole more
       conservatively.

#10  This is a short crescent shaped hole where the green
       can be driven.  The fairway is about 65 yards wide,
       and tee shots that flirt with the water left are given a
       wide open shot into the green, where the player can
       run it up or fly it in from a very short distance.  If the
       golfer plays it safe, and bails out right, then they have a
       short sand wedge or wedge into the green, over the
       mound and bunker.  I find this to be a neat little hole
       with plenty of risk reward, or options.

Perhaps you and your friends played an aggressive game at Old Marsh.  That pursuit can lead to frequent emergency calls to the pro shop for more ammo, but that's a choice each golfer must make on the tee and during the play of each hole,
You shouldn't blame the golf course for poor decisions on the part of the golfers.

The architect created a wonderful course out of nothing, with incredible restrictions from regulatory agencies.

I defy you or anyone else to build a golf course on that site, let alone a better golf course.

Can you name me a comparabale site, with comparable regulatory restrictions, where a better golf course was built,
by anyone, at anytime ??

I also mentioned that the St Augustine grass will be replaced, making the mounds less of a factor from a playability point of view.

Bob, I hope you get a chance to play it again, without hurricane winds, and that you view your options on every hole prudently, then tell me if you've changed your mind.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
Thanks for going into more detail about the mounds. Even though I had never played the course I enjoyed and understood your discription - and I'm sure others who have not played the course also appreciated your description. How would you compare Dye's use of mounds at Old Marsh with the oft criticized use of mounds at Atlantic?

[BCrosby2]

Pat -

Some facts about our group.  Handicaps ranged from 2 to 18.  Most were in the 8 - 12 range.  We all played from the regular men's tees.  (I tried to get them to move back and failed.  In hindsight it was a good thing.)  The wind on our visits was normal for south FLA.  From 10mph to 25mph, gusting.  Nothing unusual.

I know a fair amount about the legal/bureaucratic/ecologoical/ geological/hydrological problems with the OM site.  Personally, I think they were nuts to build a golf course there.  But, hey, nobody asked me.  Overcoming those problems is a testament to the perserverance of the developers and Pete Dye.  

But that it may have been a difficult site does not mean the golf course built there is necessarily a good one.

You hit the ball a little farther than I do.  Maybe one club length, so I was hitting something like the same clubs you were after teeing off from the middle tees with my friends.

On no. 1, everytime I played it I wanted to hit a knockdown wedge underneath a strong wind (usually coming from the left).  Couldn't do it because of the little mound fronting the green.

I'm not sure what options Dye gives a player on no. 5.  There is rough and bunkers left of the "Prestwick" mound.  Water to the right.  By the way, I love the 17th at Prestwick.  The hole makes sense because, among other things, it does not have a hidden water hazard running along the right side of a blind green.

I take your point about wide fairways.  Many are very wide.  But the greens are - with a few exceptions - set very close to water.  Sooner or later, even the most conservative, most strategically-minded weaker player has to approach greens either over, around or alongside a body of water.  Even worse for them, most of it is on the right.

The result was that hole by hole I watched the enthusiasm of our group leak away until it was a bunch of grumpy middle-aged golfers looking forward to the flight back to ATL.

Is it possible that their pain was partly the result of playing the course stupidly?  No doubt guys sometimes bit off more than their game's could chew.  But I don't think that's the whole story.  I don't even think it's a major part of the story.  I think it is more likely a mark of an architectural failure.

I understand why someone of your prodigious golfing talents would find OM an interesting challenge.  As a reasonably good golfer myself, I too liked some holes.  Nos. 2, 6  and 14? (the first par 3 on the back) come to mind.

But Dye failed the weaker player at OM.  And I know for a fact that part of his marching orders was to build a course they would enjoy too.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Some are the same, some are different.

BCrosby2,

With a wind velocity reaching 25mph, Old Marsh's personality changes, as does Seminole's, Pine Tree's and many other clubs.  A strong wind has a tendency to cut fairways and greens in half, and with those rather small greens, some near water, the course becomes a real challenge.  
But, 25 mph winds are not the norm.  In my mind that seems like a 3 club wind, perhaps it was a little less, perhaps a little more, but a real challenge, especially to the higher handicap.

Interestingly enough, if you look at the membership roster, and their handicaps, you find the same cross section as any other club, and..... they get substantial women's play as well.
To my knowledge, few people who joined or moved there have left, which would seem to indicate satisfaction with the golf course for every level of player.

I like playing into the wind, especially iron shots since the wind acts as a form of catchers mitt, allowing one to be a little bolder in striking the ball.

I agree with you in that the par 3's may be a little too difficult, especially for the higher handicap, and especially with some competitive pin positions, like far right on # 3 and
#8, far left on # 14 and # 16.

I think the par 5's are terrific, with # 17 being a great test, especially with the wind up.

I don't think I would want to play it as my steady diet, but I do enjoy playing the golf course, especially in a competitive environment.

How would you compare it to The Medalist pre this years changes ?

[BCrosby2]

Pat -

Haven't played the Medalist.  I'm trying to see some of the pre-WWII courses in FLA, none of which I have played so far.  Seminole, Indian Creek are at the top of the list.  I would love to get on them someday to get a different perspective on FLA golf.

Good discussion.  Thanks.  

One of the reaons GCA is a special place.

Bob