[Tom Bagley]

Ian:
As a great fan of Plymouth (MA) CC, I was very interested in reading your very well-done Master Plan.  How did you get involved with Plymouth CC and what did you learn about Donald Ross in the process?

[Ian Andrew]

I’ve likely missed many holes trying to come up with a good list

Par Threes

Royal Melbourne east 16th
Royal Melbourne West 5th
Commonwealth 9th
Yarra Yarra 15th
Kingston Heath 10th
Victoria 4th
Yarra Yarra 11th
Barnbougle Dunes 7th
Kingston Heath 15th
Woodlands 5th

The 16th at Royal Melbourne East is impressive


Short Fours

Royal Melbourne West 10th
Barnbougle Dunes 4th
Royal Melbourne West 3rd
Royal Adelaide 3rd
Commonwealth 17th
St. Andrew’s Beach 2nd
Kingston Heath 3rd
Woodlands 4th
Victoria 15th
Woodlands 3rd

The approach to the 17th at Commonwealth with a long short grass fall off to the right



Mid Fours

Barnbougle Dunes 15th
New South Wales 14th
Royal Adelaide 5th
Royal Melbourne East 9th
New South Wales 13th
Woodlands 7th
Commonwealth 8th
Metropolitan 1st
St. Andrew’s Beach 7th
Commonwealth 11th

The second shot into the 13th at New South Wales



Long Fours

Royal Melbourne West 6th
Royal Melbourne West 17th
Yarra Yarra 5th
Barnbougle Dunes 17th
Royal Adelaide 15th
Kingston Heath 16th
Barnbougle Dunes 8th
New South Wales 7th
Commonwealth 12th
Royal Melbourne East18th

The second shot into the 5th at Yarra Yarra



Fives

New South Wales 5th
Royal Melbourne West 4th
Woodlands 15th
Kingston Heath 14th
Royal Melbourne East 10th
Glenelg 12th
Metropolitan 8th

I loved Neil’s twist on a clever Australian idea to make a great hole

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

What year was Allandale designed/constructed? (Not sure I can say I'm a fan of those big mounds surrounding the 1st green, there.)

And, I totally agree with you about Royal Ottawa. This historic course could be outstanding if a restorative-based project were handled "properly".

[Ian Andrew]

What did you take from your visit to Australia and the Sandbelt last year ?

Nothing had a greater impact on me in the last 10 years than seeing the use of short grass around the greens in Melbourne. I look at our Parkland alternative here in North America and I can honestly say the Australian approach is a far superior to our version of the game.

For a weaker player, it’s all about the extra recovery options and being able to select the alternative that best fit the limits of their game. For a better player it’s all about the ball not having the rough to hold it up when it reaches the margins and having to execute some delicate shots off a tight lie. It balances things out very well.


A few quick observations:

The 3rd, one short four not in Mark’s piece


The quality of courses throughout Sandbelt is outstanding. I don’t thing people realize how good lesser known courses like Woodlands are.

The depth of outstanding short par fours and short par threes is well beyond any other area that I have ever been to. The recent opinion piece by Mark really explained that well.

Often short grass is the primary defense, even when bunkers are present. The bunker is often a much better result for missed approach.  I loved the fact that most entire green sites are surrounded by short grass, since aggressive play can often lead to the best and “worst” result.

The other big impact was seeing the short turf cut right up to the bunkers. There is nothing left to prevent the ball from being “saved” from the hazard. I think this approach places a greater value on the hazard since its far more in play.

I loved the native vegetation being incorporated into the course. It was particularly impressive at Kingston Heath where the line between native and golf often blurred beginning at the bunkers. The work there is breathtaking.

The 15th from the back with the bunkering on the 14th on the left

[Brian Phillips]

The best thing about the Aussie trip? He also got to finally meet me...and beat me.   

Ian you choice of courses is superb and really shows the quality of work that goes on in your head.  It was a pleasure to finally meet you and get to know you.

My question to you is how are you going to educate greenkeepers in Canada about mowing the grass as low as the fairway all around the greens.  By that I mean not just chipping areas but like on the Sandbelt where nearly everywhere around a green is cut short.  Will you run seminars or is it a lost cause?  Could you use Augusta as an example to give them an American version?

[Ian Andrew]

I’ve likely missed many holes trying to come up with a good

Par Threes

Royal Melbourne east 16th
Royal Melbourne West 5th
Commonwealth 9th
Yarra Yarra 15th
Kingston Heath 10th
Victoria 4th
Yarra Yarra 11th
Barnbougle Dunes 7th
Kingston Heath 15th
Woodlands 5th

The 16th at Royal Melbourne East is impressive


Short Fours

Royal Melbourne West 10th
Barnbougle Dunes 4th
Royal Melbourne West 3rd
Royal Adelaide 3rd
Commonwealth 17th
St. Andrew’s Beach 2nd
Kingston Heath 3rd
Woodlands 4th
Victoria 15th
Woodlands 3rd

The approach to the 17th at Commonwealth with a long short grass fall off to the right



Mid Fours

Barnbougle Dunes 15th
New South Wales 14th
Royal Adelaide 5th
Royal Melbourne East 9th
New South Wales 13th
Woodlands 7th
Commonwealth 8th
Metropolitan 1st
St. Andrew’s Beach 7th
Commonwealth 11th

The second shot into the 13th at New South Wales



Long Fours

Royal Melbourne West 6th
Royal Melbourne West 17th
Yarra Yarra 5th
Barnbougle Dunes 17th
Royal Adelaide 15th
Kingston Heath 16th
Barnbougle Dunes 8th
New South Wales 7th
Commonwealth 12th
Royal Melbourne East18th

The second shot into the 5th at Yarra Yarra



Fives

New South Wales 5th
Royal Melbourne West 4th
Woodlands 15th
Kingston Heath 14th
Royal Melbourne East 10th
Glenelg 12th
Metropolitan 8th

I loved Neil’s twist on a clever Australian idea to make a great hole

[jonathan_becker]

Ian,

Awesome. Thanks for the thorough response. 

[Ian Andrew]

What do you think of Cruden Bay?

When you get out of your car and see the course laid out below you can’t help but be a little giddy at the prospect of playing in those dunes. I think the anticipation this creates is second to none.

I think the opening holes are all interesting holes, but the real strength of Cruden Bay begins at the 4th. The middle run of holes from the 4th through to the 14th is as diverse and interesting a collection as you’ll find anywhere.  I think this section of the course can hold its head high with any great course in the world. 

I happen to think the much chastised 9th is a very underestimated and a really good transition hole that takes you to and from where you want to be.

The 13th is one of the better par fives I have played, particularly at the green site where the combination of knoll and reverse redan green is fantastic.

I love the 14th and the punchbowl green was the highlight of the day for me, since this was such an unusual and fun hole to play.

The 15th is just a little too awkward for me because unless you can sling a ball there is little chance of finding the green without a rope hook.

The other cool feature that I really loved was the huge knoll in the centre of the 17th fairway. That’s another great hole coming in and clever feature to deal with depending on wind.

I liked it so much I went back to play it on the next trip too.

The punchbowl 14th

[Ian Andrew]

Are there distinct differences between public golf in Canada as compared to the United States?

Kelly,

We have less of a private club culture and far more people playing public golf. We have one of the highest, if not the highest, participation rates in the world (I think it’s 26%). I find once you leave the urban centers, you have a great deal of public golf. For example one of the highest participation rates in the country is in Saskatchewan and there are only two private facilities in the province.

High end public golf is largely a Southern Ontario phenomenon and most other communities refuse to pay high fees for big budget courses. Very exclusive private clubs are also far and few between here too.

Dakota Dunes is around $35. at prime time!

In 10 years given the choice as an either or, would you like to be practicing your profession or playing golf.

I didn’t even need to think about this one. I would rather practice the profession than play. I love playing, but I’ve had various hockey related injuries that have cost me most of a golfing season twice. I choose rehab in the summer so I wouldn’t miss out on hockey in the winter (I play 3x a week). I would miss the game, but I can live without playing (assuming I can still walk new courses). I don’t think I could walk away from architecture without feeling a huge loss in my life.

But I still love to play…regardless of weather

[Derrick Vest]

Ian,

I work at Prairie Dunes, and was working the day you played with Gerry.  Would like to know more of your thoughts...favorite holes, features, things you liked, things you didn't, most under-rated hole.  Thanks!

[Kevin Pallier]

Nothing had a greater impact on me in the last 10 years than seeing the use of short grass around the greens in Melbourne. I look at our Parkland alternative here in North America and I can honestly say the Australian approach is a far superior to our version of the game.

For a weaker player, it’s all about the extra recovery options and being able to select the alternative that best fit the limits of their game. For a better player it’s all about the ball not having the rough to hold it up when it reaches the margins and having to execute some delicate shots off a tight lie. It balances things out very well.

Ian

Thanks for your response and I concur with your thoughts about the Sandbelt - the green surrounds and bunkering are indeed a highlight of the golfing region.

I also asked another question and hope to hear your thoughts on it as well:

What's your 10 favourite courses that you would recommend one see architecturally in GB&I ?

[Kevin Pallier]

Ian,

Awesome. Thanks for the thorough response. 

JB

Even more for you now to mull over in your "dreams" of visiting us down-under 

[Ian Andrew]

What's your 10 favourite courses that you would recommend one see architecturally in GB&I ?

I have not seen enough in England or played there much lately so I’ll stick with Scotland and Ireland. These are the10 courses with the biggest influences on me architecturally.

Royal County Down
The selection of green sites is incredible throughout – always begin at the greens
That blindness off the tee is justifiable if the remainder is incredible
There’s a wildness and rawness to the course that captivates your spirit
The bunkering is complete unique and spectacular accent
The 13th is on of the game’s great holes

The 13th at Royal County Down
 

The Old Course
The course is as playable as any course, unless you want to score well
While it’s wide open and full of safe lines you must take on trouble to attack the course
I love that the Road hole bunker dictates play right from the tee
That the course changes dramatically with new pins and a change of wind

Prestwick
Incorporating the most unusual feature often leads to the most memorable holes
The value of a breather hole
That every course needs a hole where par is a victory (13th)
The use of cross-fall in the greens is a very effective way to add difficulty
That I should take more chances with my work

North Berwick
The Redan is likely the single greatest strategic concept in golf
There are far more great concepts at NB beyond the redan
Feeder slopes around greens add options and great deal of fun
That an incredible green complex can make a remarkable hole out of relatively featureless land (16th)

Royal Dornoch
The value of finding elevated green sites to add challenge
That short grass around an elevated green is far more penal than bunkers
Foxy is one of the greatest holes in golf and it has no bunkers

13th at Prestwick - after 470 yards into the prevailing wind you face this insurmountable green
 

Muirfield
The course is well known for using loops to balance out the impact of wind
I love how the central ridge impacts so many holes a different points in the round
The bunker placement is a lesson in strategic placement and placing pressure on the player
That great golf can come out of average land

 Royal Potrush
The use of diagonals makes this one of the greatest driving courses in golf
The use of internal bunkering in fairways maintains width while keeping the difficulty
That clarity and conviction creates a great golf course too
Blindness can be a penalty just as much as a bunker or rough can
The 4th is a a spectacular hole

Cruden Bay
That a routing should follow how we would likely walk a property
Sometimes the oddest feature of a course is the one we most fondly remember
The highlights of the course almost all involve unusual features
The incorporation of natural mounds of dunes as internal hazards
The 13th green with the front mound of short grass and the reverse redan green

The Island Club
One of the greatest sets of short fours in golf
Nothing beats a green set between large dunes
There is nothing more sensuous than an “s” shaped fairway

Gleneagles
A great example of borrowed scenery
The back to back combination of the toughest and most playable holes for contrast
The use of carry bunkers and feeder slopes to reward aggressive play
Braid’s Best is indeed that

The Island Club’s awesome short four 7th
 

[Ian Andrew]

The rest will have to wait until tomorrow.

[Mac Plumart]

Ian...

Although I am somewhat afriad of being called an Ian Andrew Butt Boy, I'll say what is on my mind nevertheless.

This thread clearly demonstrates the value you bring not only to this site but to golf generally and golf course architecture specifically.  I've read your blog over and over again and I find it a great source of learning.  Not to mention the great posts and threads you've shared with us on this site.

In short, thanks; I appreciate your work more than you probably know!

[Kevin Pallier]

Ian

Many thanks for your detailed response to my GB&I question - I would be interested to see what English courses may have had an influence as well - however short - if you ever get the time.

Much obliged.

[Sean_A]

Ian

Your blog piece on the greatest archies was a lot of fun to read.  I noticed your recent Fowler kick - have you changed your ideas concerning this list in the past few years?  If so, how?

Have you ever built a course on your own incorporating mainly your ideas?  If so, do you have (or has someone else done) a photo essay of the course(s)?

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

http://www.plyccma.com/go

Ian,

Is Plymouth complete now, and can you talk about the course and process?

What have you found about the history of Knollwood (NY)? It seems Tilly is in the mix, but then I hear others too.

[Ian Andrew]

Was there something special you saw in Travis's work that made him a focus of your work?

It was by accident.

Lookout Point approached me and asked me to do a Master Plan. I thought the course was really good, but I knew nothing about the architect and felt I was not capable of doing the plan until I knew more about him. I asked and received 3 months to learn more about Travis before putting a plan together.

I spent a bunch of week-ends going to see his work and received a great deal of information from Ed Homsey (founder of the Travis Society). After getting more comfortable, I began working with the club and still do today.

We have begun to concentrate on green and collar areas in recent times and the club has finally come around on tree removal.
 
Lookout Point’s 1st and 10th is a pretty memorable pair as they drop over 100 feet.
 

Where is his best place to see how good & under appreciated he really was?

Five that would provide a great Overview

Cape Arundal
Exceptional golf course and likely the best of his originals

Lookout Point
Exceptional routing over very aggressive land is very good

Yahnandasis
The multiple punchbowl greens and par threes are quite something

CC of Scranton
18 original greens with very aggressive internal contours show his creativity – they have been recaptured back to their original extents

Hollywood
His architectural reaction to time spent at Pine Valley
Has so many unique holes

The 4th has the wildest mounds and bunkers (all manufactured) that I have seen
 

Which of the courses you have worked on gives you the most pride?

Lookout Point because I was a little bit inexperienced and certainly did not know as much as I would later on, but I didn’t screw it up. There are a few things that could have been done better, but generally all the early work was pretty good.

We have spent the last few years pushing the grassing lines to where they should be, removing more trees and softening off a few of the mounds, but I still find a lot of the work has held up well.

Bunker detail from the 1st hole
 

[Jeff_Brauer]

How negatively did playing a round of golf with me at Bandon affect your career?

[Adam Clayman]

Ian. I had the opportunity to meet graham at Highlands. I was floored by the bones and the initial work is promising. I hope I didn't freak you out on the Cabot thread. I'm not (not that there's anything wrong with that). I hope you get the funds to continue the excellent work there. Highlands will undoubtedly receive many more sophisticated golfers beginning with the opening of Cabot Links. Both Joe and Graham (sp?)are great allies. Are there any "in the ground" changes planned for highlands? Other than the tree clearing and green recapturing planned or wanted?

[Ian Andrew]

When you are asked to restore ODG courses.  All things being equal, do you believe in restoring a bunker on the exact spot where the ODG placed the bunker, even if long hitters easily fly the bunker,  or moving it out to where current players land the ball.

I originally was fairly pure in trying to keep things exactly where they were. I assume that was out respect to the great architects, but may be it was reluctance in general. I’ve had many talks over the years with Bruce Hepner and Gil Hanse about restoration and used their opinions to help shape my philosophy.

At Scarboro, Gil and I got a chance to work together on the restoration/renovation of Canada’s only Tillinghast course.  There were no fairway bunkers on the early aerial because they ran out of money. Gil and I removed all the fairway bunkers that had been added over the years and placed new bunkers based upon the original drawing I had found in the archives. We also relocated some of those bunkers to new locations to consider the current landing areas. I found the experience made me more comfortable with making small changes.

It warmed up to the idea of moving or adding the occasional fairway bunker to keep things current, but I still tend to leave a vast majority intact. At Knollwood I choose to change fairway bunkers on two holes where the originals were gone and those locations would be completely out of context with today. I based the pattern on former bunkers to hide what I was doing.

Scarboro’s (tillinghast) 285 yard par four 7th – the best short four in Canada
 




I would love to do the same with Bruce one day, I enjoy working with other architects.

[Ian Andrew]

How did you get involved with Plymouth CC?

Tom,

The god’s honest truth was I probably wasn’t supposed to get the work. I was recommended as “someone interesting and different” who was worth talking to. I was ibrought in to offer the committee a contrast to the series of people with Ross experience. I made it through the initial stage because they liked my presentation. I said that I believe there are no patterns to any architects work and restoration was all about dealing with the specific facts of that particular course.

I thought there was a logical candidate from the outset I assumed they would get the work. So I had a lot of fun at the two interviews and that seemed to have an imapct on the process because they thought I would be fun to work with. I was quite surprised and very pleased to get the opportunity.

The project is 90% changing the grass lines and removing the trees. We will be use the work of Bruce Hepner at Essex Country Club as inspiration for where we will try and get to.

The long par four 5th finishing in a punchbowl green
 

What did you learn about Donald Ross in the process?

His courses are more subtle and understated than any other famous architect. The bunkering is often minimal and the flourishes are few, but his courses are just as strategic and just as interesting as any of the great architects in history. Where someone like Thompson found flamboyance, Ross discovered the value of restraint.

There are so much many areas to praise his work from the outstanding skill in routing courses through to his use of strategically placed bunkers. He seemed to revel in the placement of a key bunker in the position you most wanted to be, often leaving you with lots of room to go around, but the knowledge that you had to take on the bunker in order to take on the hole.

His greens at Plymouth are some of the wildest I have encountered and have left a lasting impression in my head. They teach us that the easiest way to defend a hole is through pitch and funny enough pure pitch is seldom used as a technique. Finding yourself long or wide at Plymouth is often the kiss of death.

One of many great holes at Plymouth – the very long and demanding par four 11th
 

[Ian Andrew]

How are you going to educate green keepers in Canada about mowing the grass as low as the fairway all around the greens.  By that I mean not just chipping areas but like on the Sandbelt where nearly everywhere around a green is cut short.  Will you run seminars or is it a lost cause?  Could you use Augusta as an example to give them an American version?

Brian,

I doubt there is anything that I can teach a superintendent, it's more about making sure I put them in the best position to succeed.

There is lots of short grass around greens in Toronto, particularly with newer work. The biggest difference is going to be the extent that the Australian approach would require. I think tree removal is essential in our climate.

The work I did at Ballantrae (1999) has every green completely surrounded by short grass. The biggest issues that we had to address on behalf of the superintendent was the potential for ice damage.

The biggest issue we face as architects is thatch. When the next superintendent at Ballantrae didn’t deal with the thatch problem the ground game was taken away and the integrity of the design was lost.


For Brian – Royal Sydney and some short grass
 

[Philippe Binette]

Hi Ian,

what do you think is the hardest thing to get right while designing ?

what's the most underrated part of design ?
what's the most overrated part of design ?

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