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JNC Lyon

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I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« on: September 20, 2010, 11:55:54 AM »
Right now, we have a great thread about the Biarritz, a discussion on the most controversial Ryder Cup venue ever, and an exposition of the desecration of Banff, once one of the world's ten greatest courses.  These threads have a grand total of 32 replies.  Meanwhile, the College Football thread has 426 replies had has no relation to GCA since the first page.

We have all posted on off topic threads and made comments that have no relation to GCA.  Hell, I love football as much as anyone.  I'm in two fantasy leagues, am a diehard Broncos fan, and I'd be happy to discuss it with any of you over a drink.  But when I'm on Golf Club Atlas, I want to write about golf course architecture.  That's why we're all here, right?  We log in here every day.  We spend too much time crafting responses that a few hundred people will read.  I've spent hours at a time reading old threads on the Addington and the Reverse Jans National.  We are all here because we are golf course architecture fanatics who want to learn more and argue about it.  Honestly, if that's not you, I would reconsider posting on here.

So let's try to figure out why we're collectively more interested in discussing football.  Then, let's return to GCA!
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Terry Lavin

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Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2010, 12:01:35 PM »
Very provocative post.  Makes me think of ways to turn a football field into an ingenious one shotter.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

PCCraig

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Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 12:03:54 PM »
Are there any brothers in golf course architecture that are as celebrated and talented as the Manning brothers?

RTJ Jr. & Rees. - Both the Mannings and the Jones' had to work in the shadow of their fathers.
H.P.S.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2010, 12:04:44 PM »
Five minutes in and already three classic responses! See what happens when you relate things back to GCA?
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

George Pazin

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Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2010, 12:13:37 PM »
I stopped reading when you said you were a Broncos fan... :)

People log on for all sorts of different reasons. I do it mostly to be among friends, discussing just about anything.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2010, 12:13:49 PM »
The best way to get a good conversation going is to ask a good question and milk the responses a little.

If there are three interesting (to you) GCA related threads on the first page, you should have plenty to discuss...

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2010, 12:18:03 PM »
The best way to get a good conversation going is to ask a good question and milk the responses a little.

If there are three interesting (to you) GCA related threads on the first page, you should have plenty to discuss...

That is my strategy on just about any thread I start on here, including this one.  However, most of these threads max out at about 3-4 pages.  On the other hand, someone says college football, and it ignites a 14 page thread.

Sports Illustrated didn't write an article about Golf Club Atlas because of its College Football threads.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Patrick_Mucci

Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2010, 12:27:05 PM »

Is there any evidence that the same people who complain about fairness on a golf course and are most vocal about making changes to their courses are the same people who complain about referees, play calls, etc.

Kelly,

If the referees calls were accurate and consistent we wouldn't need instant replay would we ? ;D

Plays and games shouldn't be decided by erroneous calls or non-calls.

We all want to see them get it right.

By the way, is there anything to the rumor that they're going to cut Alaska in half and make Texas the third largest state in the Union ?


JNC,

Some good GCA threads seem to die on the vine, never getting much in the way of discussion.
Isn't that a reflection on the quality of the participants  ? ;D

« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 12:49:46 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Peter Pallotta

Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2010, 12:40:36 PM »
Any chance that members of golf courses that prove to have no adequate defence against the best players in the world (akin, to say, the way in which the Orange Crush proved futile against that All-American hero, Roger Staubach) try to turn that negative/defeat into a positive by claiming that their course has been unchanged since an young amateur ODG (akin, to say, Coach Red Miller) first designed it and that its only flaw is not an aging infrastructure (akin, to say, Craig Morton) but instead due to "modern technology" (like, for example, Coach Landry's Flex Defence and Shot-Gun Formation)?

Peter


Patrick_Mucci

Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2010, 01:06:23 PM »
How does this desire to get every call right affect the issue of fairness in golf.

It doesn't

Are people trying to make golf more like other sports...is that where this comes from?

I don't think so.

I think the quest for "fairness" was brought about by the broadening of the spectrum of those who play the game, combined with the introduction of democracy within clubs.

When clubs transitioned from leadership based on dictatorship and/or oligarchies, to democratic rule, suddenly each individual member felt that they could address and change their architectural pet peeves.

That they could influence the features that they perceived adversely affected their games.

You know what happens when you entertain suggestions from the Pit, everybody presents THEIR particular suggestion without any regard to how it affects the other golfers.  There's a selfishness, or a lack of global vision when it comes to altering a feature that adversely affects their game.

And, since democratic rule prevails, if they had enough influence at the Green Committee or Board level, they could see to it that the alteration took place.

Then, once the other members saw that a member could influence the design/features, the golf course became open seaon to the membership wielded scalpel.

Anything that adversely affected their game was deemed to be UNFAIR and in need of correction or eradication.

And slowly but surely the course began to lose its character, the style of the original designer

How often have we heard the phrase, "little remains of the original design"?
It's because course after course disfigured their design in the name of "fairness".

Bring back dictators and the Stymie !

End of rant

[/quote]

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2010, 01:11:54 PM »
Are architects on GCA who continually bring up their own work and promote their virtues the same ones who always talk about their kid's athleticism and complain to coaches about their kid's lack of play time when everyone else knows if the kid went up against a blocking dummy on a tackling drill the dummy would win.

 ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2010, 01:19:34 PM »

Kelly,

One thing that golf has, that few other sports have, is integrity amongst the competitors.

Golfers call penalties on themselves.

In other sports, competitors KNOWING that they didn't make a play, pretend as if they did (catches)

Just last week a pitched ball hit the bat, but, the ump called that it hit the batter.
The batter knew that he didn't get hit, but, did he tell the ump that he didn't get hit ?  NO.   WHY ?

Because the culture of the other sports is to get away with whatever you can.

Whereas in golf, the culture is to be honest AND sportsmen like with respect to the rules, infractions and conduct.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2010, 01:32:52 PM »
A big difference between golf and other sports is that the golfer is expected to know the rulebook thoroughly, as there is no official with most groups -- no ump, no ref, nobody with a penalty flag or a whistle to call infractions or enforce (sometimes) arcane rules.

The result is that a lot of people we play with don't really know how to proceed when infractions occur, and in many cases don't even know that an infraction did occur. Those of us who do know the rules (most of 'em, anyway) are then put in the position of being the arbiter and enforcer, which can be dicey.

A couple of weeks ago I played in a four-ball match against a father and son. The father was not having a good day, topping shots often and so severely that a couple of them hopped sideways and almost struck their cart. I didn't want to have to call that penalty on them, so I called the son over and reminded him of the rule about striking one's own partner or equipment -- two shot penalty. Without actually giving advice, I was trying to suggest that he park the cart farther away when his dad was hitting shots. He nodded seriously and thanked me, saying he understood. For the rest of the round, he continued to park their cart right next to his father when the old guy was hitting.

The father never banged a ball off the cart, fortunately. I really didn't want to play the role of policeman.

"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2010, 01:39:04 PM »
 JNC,

      It is much easier to comment on a football topic than an architectural one. I think the view number may be a more valuable indicator of interest in the topic.


 
AKA Mayday

Melvyn Morrow

Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2010, 01:42:28 PM »

You want to talk GCA. OK so let’s talk about carts, the tracks to minimise fairway wear and the design complications they generate for the designers. Let’s talk about courses with more blind holes, minimising the effect of distance aids requiring golfers to think GCA as they walk to their next shot. Then we have hazards, there is a large arsenal to choose from so why include Island Greens which are more likely to slow down ones round at best or kill it stone dead at worst. Two aims that are not akin with my idea of hazards.

Golf was born on the links so should we accept trees on the course, do we allow shallow bunkers which give aid to the golfer or do we seek hazards that push or test the Golfer.

Yet the worst offenders are carts, cart tracks and the overpopulation of bunkers, some courses seem to have them breeding like rabbits, Yet any mention of carts and some complain, the subject is boring so many want to talk about the top 100 courses – what has that to do with GCA and is the most boring subject on here list ones top 50 courses but it does not stop it cropping up nearly every week.

You want GCA then talk GCA not just selective subjects because you do not want to talk about carts for the simple reason being that you are a user.

One of the biggest GCA problems is based upon the cart and its effect on our courses – so let’s talk about it

Or is that just a Bridge Too far, to close to home comforts to lay yourself open to being part of the problem. Do the designers on here have the balls to talk openly about their preference and what they would like to have done (not necessary what they have done) to some of their course over the last 10 years.

Let’s talk GCA and have fun , let’s look to the history and learn, let’s see if we can play GOLF on good honest golf courses and not compromise our belief in the game for cheap and pointless thrills that have no place on a GOLF Course, And let’s try and embrace the opinions of others with open minds as they may well have a point that we may not have considered.

The lack or roll back, the destruction of our old and quality courses for the need for distance. Golf is about skill the challenge not just distance. Do we want to see golf go the way of Darts, the boring start of each hole so the need for distance until we get close to the finish (in golf the Hole) when skill is required. Is this not the reason we have designers to challenge the golfer and certainly off the Tee, its just too easy, what has happened to GCA from the Tees – oh yes the simple modern solution copy the R&A on the 17th Road Hole on TOC – wow that was creative, seems we have been doing that every time a new ball comes into play, but what about the GCA guys

Perhaps there is a good reason we have OT subjects – its keeps us all off the subject GCA. But hey guys we have cartball, playing scramble, and any other form of alien golf we can think of as its seems more fun than thinking of GCA.
 
Melvyn

TEPaul

Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2010, 01:53:09 PM »
"You want to talk GCA. OK so let’s talk about carts,...."



On the other hand, Melvyn, let's not!

Dale Jackson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2010, 01:55:04 PM »

...

Those of us who do know the rules (most of 'em, anyway) are then put in the position of being the arbiter and enforcer, which can be dicey.

A couple of weeks ago I played in a four-ball match against a father and son. The father was not having a good day, topping shots often and so severely that a couple of them hopped sideways and almost struck their cart. I didn't want to have to call that penalty on them, so I called the son over and reminded him of the rule about striking one's own partner or equipment -- two shot penalty. Without actually giving advice, I was trying to suggest that he park the cart farther away when his dad was hitting shots. He nodded seriously and thanked me, saying he understood. For the rest of the round, he continued to park their cart right next to his father when the old guy was hitting.


Of course, it is a one stroke penalty, not two.  And advising other players about possible rules infractions is not advice.  :)
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2010, 01:55:39 PM »
"You want to talk GCA. OK so let’s talk about carts,...."



On the other hand, Melvyn, let's not!

Amen.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2010, 02:06:49 PM »
"You want to talk GCA. OK so let’s talk about carts,...."



On the other hand, Melvyn, let's not!

Amen.

how many times must we be subjected to these rants about carts  ::) ??? :o
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 02:27:36 PM by Paul Thomas »
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2010, 02:10:44 PM »
Paul,

I think you mean "subjected", not "suggested"...
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2010, 02:12:35 PM »
Here's another thing about golf that ties into both gca and sportsmanship - if a golfer makes a mistake about a rule he is screwed!  Look at Dustin Johnson - he did not believe the area he was in was a bunker but they look at the TV and tell him that he violated the rule.  You'd think that they would at least give him a clue like a rake and no footprints. So when we look at architecture and how it implicates the rules sometimes you have to wonder what the designer was thinking - especially when he was told by his client that he was building a venue with the specific intent of hosting a major championship. Baseball even gives the umpire a chance to fix his mistake but it isn't a requirement.  

Pat Burke

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Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2010, 02:25:38 PM »
JNC
I prefer well bunkered greens on the smallish side.
(Just thought I'd get back to GCA!)

Jim Franklin

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Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2010, 02:28:24 PM »
I stopped reading when you said you were a Broncos fan... :)

People log on for all sorts of different reasons. I do it mostly to be among friends, discussing just about anything.

Bingo.
Mr Hurricane

Melvyn Morrow

Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2010, 02:34:08 PM »
Paul, Tom, Terry


"From Here to Eternity"

Melvyn

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I'm Logged In to GCA...I Want to Talk Golf Course Architecture!
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2010, 02:37:54 PM »
Paul, Tom, Terry


"From Here to Eternity"

Melvyn

Check your med and straight to bed.   ;D
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken