Is Pasatiempo Overbunkered?

[Phil Benedict]

I played Pasatiempo for the first time yesterday.  I've only played 5 times this year so my game stinks and I am somewhat alienated from actually playing golf.  Nevertheless Pasatiempo was a real treat with some of the coolest greens I've seen and lots of elevation changes going on.

The bunkers look fantastic (query: did Augusta National's bunkers originally look like this or were they always so bland?) but I came away thinking there might be too many of them.  Miss a green and you likely end up in a bunker; hence, there isn't so much short game variety as a variety of bunker shots.  Or miss alot and have to hit over a bunker.

I thought it was a pretty hard course despite mostly generous fairways.  Some of the greens (e.g. 16) are off the charts.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Augusta originally looked similar.  Mac was somewhat known for "freak greens."

Bunkers do look fantastic and I think Doak just restored them a few years back.

Generous fairways?  Did you skip the middle of the front nine?

[Les Cordes]

phil....that is pretty much the original bunkering from 1929.. ..... the green/bunker complexes tend to define the course.... for better or worse.....having played it now for twenty years i actually wish there were more in-play fairway bunkers to create a bit of target golf...but the course tends to play a lot longer than the yardage and as noted it can be a trying experience to simply get the ball on the green in regulation and avoid the the greenside sand...les

[Phil Benedict]

Augusta originally looked similar.  Mac was somewhat known for "freak greens."

Bunkers do look fantastic and I think Doak just restored them a few years back.

Generous fairways?  Did you skip the middle of the front nine?

I said 'mostly' generous.  One hole on the front 9 looked like a bowling alley.

[Garland Bayley]

Yes

[Pete Lavallee]

  One hole on the front 9 looked like a bowling alley.

Believe it or not that hole is more open now after removing the tree that was right before the right side fairway bunker. The original front nine must have been a joy to play with the freedom allowed by what basically was an open field. However someone had to rifle a misguided tee shot from the 7th tee and killed someone on hole #8; the front nine has never been the same. It is rather ironic that the Good Dr. detested rows of trees , planted like soldiers standing in formation. Still the longest 6500 yard course on the planet; that's gotta count for something!

[Ross Tuddenham]

Ok so maybe a few too many, but hey i liked it it like that.  I do seem to remember that in his writings MacKenzie was in favour of few but well placed bunkers.



I think this is the bowling ally mentioned above




I think it was clear on this hole that drive up the left was the prime strategy.  Given how tight it is no other option than to hit straight up the middle remains.

[Phil Benedict]

 One hole on the front 9 looked like a bowling alley.

Believe it or not that hole is more open now after removing the tree that was right before the right side fairway bunker. The original front nine must have been a joy to play with the freedom allowed by what basically was an open field. However someone had to rifle a misguided tee shot from the 7th tee and killed someone on hole #8; the front nine has never been the same. It is rather ironic that the Good Dr. detested rows of trees , planted like soldiers standing in formation. Still the longest 6500 yard course on the planet; that's gotta count for something!

Pete,

On the third hole I hit a dead pull that came uncomfortably close to two ladies teeing off on 4, who were quite nice about it.  That's one of the risks of having greens close to tees on par 3's.

[Pete Lavallee]

Phil,

That was a good miss; trust me, you don't want to have to get up and down from front right!

[William_G]

No.

TD did a great job restoring the bunkers back to what AM had built, probably similar (in look) to (the original) ANGC, tough course not fun, LOL, especially the uphill par 3 on the front 9, (#3?)
 
Thanks

[Garland Bayley]

Augusta originally looked similar.  Mac was somewhat known for "freak greens."

Bunkers do look fantastic and I think Doak just restored them a few years back.

Generous fairways?  Did you skip the middle of the front nine?

There are almost as many bunkers in those 3 pictures as Augusta had on 18 holes. I guess the bunker look could have been similar, we'll take your word for now, but I doubt Augusta as a whole looked similar.

At CPC and Pasa, AM broke his own rules in his GA book about the bunker quantity. Not at all similar to ANGC, where he kept the number low as per his philosophy at the time.

I wonder if his amazement of the acceptance of CPC which had a lot of bunkers caused him to proceed differently from them on.

[Paul Jones]

I feel a lot of courses would benefit from removing some bunkers.  Very rarely do I ever see a course and think they need more bunkers.

I cannot comment on Pasatiempo since I have never played it...

Paul

[ed_getka]

No. I have played a number of rounds at Pasa and thinking back over the years I can't remember being in very many sand traps there. #9 greenside is the most likely place once you have put your approach above the hole once. Pasa is one of my favorite courses and definitely is one of the longer 6500yd courses you will play.

[Mark_Fine]

A bigger issue for Pasatiempo is green speed.  Clearly conditions change on a weekly (even on a daily basis) but when I played there a few months ago, the speed of the greens eliminated some of the most interesting pin locations on several of the greens.  Sometimes slower is better  

As far as the number of bunkers; this is a subjective thing.  My opinion is that they are overdone for a parkland golf course but that is what Mackenzie did on that property.  I'm sure Tom did not add any that were not on the original plan/design.  

[PThomas]

were any trees removed or trimmed by Tom D's crew??

[JC Urbina]

Mark,

Pasateimpo golf club was not a Parklnad golf course  as you stated when construction began in 1929.  The bunkers you see were created to challenge the golfer as he or she steered there way around the golf course.

The boldness of the features were the only way to create interest and strategy when you were dealing with over 150 acres of  California hill side void of natural features other then the barrancas that he cleverly used mostly on the back nine.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kelly and Garland,

You are both correct that the number of bunkers is fewer at ANGC. I don't know how much was Jones, how much was the depression, and how much was AM philosophy at ANGC.

I was referring to the basic look of the bunkers from aerial photos of the original ANGC.  Besides bunkers, the horseshoe green was a feature at both courses.

[William_G]

Jim,

That's right as I now remember the aerials in the clubhouse/grill of the site prior to and/or during construction. There is nothing there except hillside, ravines, trees, and scrub, amazing!

[Mike Benham]

Mark,

Pasateimpo golf club was not a Parklnad golf course  as you stated when construction began in 1929.  The bunkers you see were created to challenge the golfer as he or she steered there way around the golf course.

The boldness of the features were the only way to create interest and strategy when you were dealing with over 150 acres of  California hill side void of natural features other then the barrancas that he cleverly used mostly on the back nine.

Here is a photograph, linked from the Julian P Graham Loon Hill Studios collection that speaks to that point:

Julian P Graham Collection

[Jay Flemma]

Phil, funny you should say that...I average being in one or two bunkers a round...at Pasa, I was in ten.

10!

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
Good point about the original landscape.  However, that landscape has turned into a parkland setting and the bold and dramatic bunkers now overwelm the visual senses.  This is an interesting case of what does one do when doing "restoration"?  Now that the site is heavily treed presenting a far different look than what Mackenzie first dealt with, would Mackenzie have kept all those dramatic bold bunkers that were needed early on or would he take many of them out?  Or would he cut down trees    My initial guess is some combination of both but careful study would be necessary to make a more objective decision. 

I recall playing Royce Brook in NJ (the West course which is Steven Smyers tribute course to Mackenzie).  Symers did the same kind of wild dramatic bunkering all over the golf course.  The setting was basically farmland with not a lot of exciting topo/natural features.  It needed something to juice it up.  While I enjoy parts of the course, I also think portions were way overdone.  It has since been changed since first opened. Part of the reason was the high maintenance cost to manage all those bunkers. 
Mark

[William_G]

Mark,

Love the thought about speculating what AM would do now almost 100 years later.

Look what's happened at Pebble and ANGC.

More trees at ANGC?!

At Pebble there seems to be less trees every year.

Love the bunkers at Pasa, they define the course.

Thanks!

[Mike Benham]

Love the thought about speculating what AM would do now almost 100 years later.

Would Mac even take the job? it is a housing development ...


I've asked the question before, with the plot of land barren of trees and houses, why was the routing so compressed, specifically on 6 and 7, and possible on 15 and 16? 

Being able to use the land, just 25 or 30 yards more, left of 6 fairway (or right of 16) would have made a world of difference ...

[William_G]

Mike,

Must have been restricted at the time by property lines. Just think where the driving range ended up.

It would be a tough remodel, but no one but the original architect would be the best.

I guess TD was just asked to restore the bunkers.??

Funny, but I know conscientious architects like Crenshaw and Doak keep following up on their courses as the years go by to see if changes are needed etc.... Is that a standard practice?

Thanks

[Jon Spaulding]

Love the thought about speculating what AM would do now almost 100 years later.

Would Mac even take the job? it is a housing development ...


I've asked the question before, with the plot of land barren of trees and houses, why was the routing so compressed, specifically on 6 and 7, and possible on 15 and 16? 

Being able to use the land, just 25 or 30 yards more, left of 6 fairway (or right of 16) would have made a world of difference ...

Michael, just blame the Olmstead Brothers, and Marion's drinking problem.