[Richard Choi]

A very very interesting discussion. Thanks to all parties involved and I really hope I get to see Dellwood before and after.

However, I am not sure what good is such careful contouring of the the green approach is if no one ever uses it. I have played both BL and BPB, and I never had any thoughts about rolling the ball in. Why would anyone do that if you can just fly the ball in and have it land next to the pin and have it stay? I have yet to played these courses where I felt compelled to play a ground game. I mean, these courses rarely have strong winds (with the trees it wouldn't matter much) and even though the greens can run fast (especially at BL), they are quite receptive to aerial shots.

Do these architectural features matter at any time other than perhaps US Open? If so, is it really good architecture?

[Rick Wolffe]

Ok Pat, game on!

We must arrange for an impartial referee to score this event -- how about Mr. Phil Young who will be in town next week?  I happened to be on BL earlier this evening and took this photo from the left edge of the fairway exactly 170.4 yards to the geometric center of the green.  Hmm...appears to me that the green opens up very nicely to a shot from the left side of the fairway.  I took another photo from the right side of the fairway and that high Nicklaus fade would seem to work quite well from that angle.



The green opens its best face to a long and accurate drive to the left side of the fairway...featuring a green this way was something that Tillinghast believed marked the difference between good golf holes and indifferent golf holes.  He wrote that, "...greens opening up diagonally to a straight line from the teeing grounds, make the true line of play something other than indifferent hitting straight ahead, sauce for goose and gander alike."

The photo below is from the right side of the fairway, approximately 170.46 yards to the geometric center...seems to me that the Nicklaus high fade would work pretty well from here.  

[Phil_the_Author]

Richard,

It is an example of outstanding design philosophy put into practice.

First of all, in my opinion, the mistake you are making in your reasoning is that you are looking at these holes as a modern day golfer. They weren't designed and built with the game as played today through the technology that is used today in mind. In the mid-1930's, when Bethpage was created, on back to the mid-teens, when Tilly did Essex County in New Jersey, the ground game was very much in use at all levels.

Actually, I am of the opinion that the reason Tilly courses hold up so well to the onslaught of the modern pro whether in an Open, PGA, PGA tour, Met Open right on down to a simple fun round, is because his courses were designed with the ground game in mind. By creating a fairway end that is actually the beginning of the green entrance one makes the putting surface flow out from those undulations and meld it into those used on the interior of the green. Doing this makes it paramount that one optimizes the most favorable angle of play into these undulations because to do otherwise will make it far more difficult to hit an approach shot close to the hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ok Pat, game on!

We must arrange for an impartial referee to score this event -- how about Mr. Phil Young who will be in town next week?  

Why not get a second impartial judge, like Bob Trebus

I happened to be on BL earlier this evening and took this photo from the left edge of the fairway exactly 170.4 yards to the geometric center of the green.  


We both know the risks associated with flirting with the left side of that fairway.
Rough and trees can produce bogies, doubles and more, especially with the intervening creek.
Placing the ball at the LEFT EDGE of the fairway is a very, very difficult difficult task calling for a draw off the tee.

Then, you want the golfer to hit a low fade off of a downhill side hill lie that will carry the creek.   Hmmm, How many members are capable of those shots on one hole ?

Hmm...appears to me that the green opens up very nicely to a shot from the left side of the fairway.  

The only problem is, like Yogi says, you can't get there from here.
It's a very difficult tee shot, requiring a draw that ends up on the LEFT EDGE of the fairway.
Who in their right mind aims for the LEFT EDGE of that fairway off the tee ?
Especially when you consider the tall trees that line the left side of that hole and the fact that the hole doglegs further to the left

I took another photo from the right side of the fairway and that high Nicklaus fade would seem to work quite well from that angle.
It would be great if you could post that as well.



The green opens its best face to a long and accurate drive...featuring a green is this way was something that Tillinghast liked and believed marked the difference between good golf holes and indifferent golf holes.

It's certainly a great golf hole, requiring a great drive and a great second shot.

I just don't see it being played as you describe, unless the golfer is in the left rough and can't get his ball airborne due to the trees or the lie

I'm available the 28th and 30th

[Rick Wolffe]

Great Idea Pat, I'll get Trebus too...and will check my calendar for the 28th or 30th.

I posted the other photo from the right side of the fairway in a modification to my prior post above...actually with the disappearence of several prominent trees on the left side, a controlled draw off the tee is the preferred tee shot as the slope will throw a pushed shot into the right rough as I was almost hit by one when I took the photos above earlier this evening.

[Rick Wolffe]

Thought this aerial photo of 3 Lower may also be a good way to show how Tillinghast opened many of his greens to a preferred line or angle of approach.

The aerial dates to 1927 or 29 and we understand that Tillinghast sketched the outlines of the tee boxes, greens, and bunkers to assist in the final finish work of the courses.



An interesting side note on this aerial -- near the start of the fairway on the right are remnants of the greenside bunkers of the old third green of the Old Course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thought this aerial photo of 3 Lower may also be a good way to show how Tillinghast opened many of his greens to a preferred line or angle of approach.

The aerial dates to 1927 or 29 and we understand that Tillinghast sketched the outlines of the tee boxes, greens, and bunkers to assist in the final finish work of the courses.

Rick, the problem with the aerial is that it's not representative of how the hole has played for the last 50 years.
If you look at the aerials from 1986 to 2006 you'll see that the left side of the fairway is protected/blocked by the canopy of the huge Oak trees.

I would agree that AWT created a risk/reward on the drive/approach.
Hit an ideal drive, be rewarded, vis a vis the angle of attack with a more benign approach.(open to the green)
But years of growth of the trees have thwarted his design concepts to the extent that any attempt to position your drive on the left EDGE of the fairway is far, far too risky.


An interesting side note on this aerial -- near the start of the fairway on the right are remnants of the greenside bunkers of the old third green of the Old Course.

[Rick Wolffe]

Pat,

So it's too risky for you...well we'll see...how does the 30th at 5pm sound for the big match?  We can do dinner with Trebus and Young after the battle.

I can hear the announcer now...

"I spoke to Mucci before the grudge match began, and he said he is much too scared to go down the left side because he has a phobia for beech and oak, and he will sleep better taking the much safer route to the right; however, Wolffe said he grew up here and always tries to bomb it down the left side...if the upstart Wolffe can pull it off, Mucci will be looking at going one down from the fairway, as this is the first handicap hole and he has to give Wolffe a shot, and frankly, there is no way Mucci can hit a high fade into the pin the way Nicklaus could."



This aerial was taken off Google maps and dates to June of 2010...the lines show the green opening up to a drive accurately placed down the left side whereas the safer drive on the right side is left with a more difficult shot to the green that must carry the master traps on the right.

[Rick Wolffe]

Getting back to the original question of this thread and what AWT's greens may tell us about the evolution of AWT's design style, below is an aerial photo of one if his courses taken around 1928.  As can be seen, many of the greens and approaches open up in diagonal to the fairway.  Can anyone name this course? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

So it's too risky for you...well we'll see...how does the 30th at 5pm sound for the big match?  
We can do dinner with Trebus and Young after the battle.

As much as I'd really love to do that, golf and dinner, I have a conflict on the 30th in that I have to be in Upper Montclair at 7:30

I can hear the announcer now...

"I spoke to Mucci before the grudge match began, and he said he is much too scared to go down the left side because he has a phobia for beech and oak, and he will sleep better taking the much safer route to the right; however, Wolffe said he grew up here and always tries to bomb it down the left side...if the upstart Wolffe can pull it off, Mucci will be looking at going one down from the fairway, as this is the first handicap hole and he has to give Wolffe a shot, and frankly, there is no way Mucci can hit a high fade into the pin the way Nicklaus could."

I think, instead, that the announcer would state, only a fool would try to drive his ball, tight, along the left tree line in order to get to the very left edge of the fairway.

In the old days, I could draw or fade a ball at will, now, I just hope it goes where I'm aiming

Look at the aerial you posted and look how tight to the left side you have to be.
If you hit a branch or a couple of leaves, your ball is coming down, into the trees, or in the rough, not far off the tee.

Your line is a very dangerous line, not one where course management skills come into play.
I can see TEPaul trying that shot, but, not me.



This aerial was taken off Google maps and dates to June of 2010...the lines show the green opening up to a drive accurately placed down the left side whereas the safer drive on the right side is left with a more difficult shot to the green that must carry the master traps on the right.

Accurately placed ? ?  ?

That's a one in a thousand, well, maybe a one in a hundred, well maybe one in ten shot.
But, we'll try the challenge, especialliy with the group you've arranged, we'll just have to get our schedules ironed out.

It should be fun

[Rick Wolffe]

Word on the street has it that the Mucci-Wolffe battle for the approach is on for Setember 29th!

Just so no one thinks that Tillinghast had open approaches on all his par 4's, here is an example of one without,



From behind a fairway bunker



The green showing its approach drawn down to the top of the fronting trap/pit
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Confirmed for the 29th.

I was talking to a Baltusrol member today about the 3rd hole, the tee shot, sloped DZ, required carry on the approach, bunkering, rough, drip lines into playing corridors, etc., etc.. 

He want to syndicate my action.

His comment, which mirrors my thoughts was.

The danger in getting to the left center of the fairway, let alone the left edge, was that if you slightly misjudge or slightly mishit your drive, you're:

1.  Going to hit the trees off the tee.
2.  Going to go into the left rough.

Both of which have disastrous results.

[Rick Wolffe]

I was talking to a Baltusrol member today too...she mentioned that the club has alot of members who are wusses and they suffer from acute oak-beech phobia

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rick,

Let's hope that the incoming green chairman suffers from the same phobia and looks to any of the following RX's for the cure.
Echo, Stihl, Husqvarna or McCullough.

[Rick Wolffe]

Pat

Yes, they are all good cures if the trees are not supposed to be there, but Tillinghast designed this hole with the trees in mind to swing the hole in dog-leg fashion from right to left.  I concur that over the years several of these trees encroached the left side to various degrees, but in recent years several were removed or pruned back.  That said, the pruning and removal of encroaching trees is something that should continue with the your suggested Rx prescriptions on this and several other holes on both courses.  When we tour the course, I will show you some oak trees which were recently pruned back to where the roots meet the trunk.

Regarding the preferred side of the fairway on 3 Lower, by chance I posed that question to the current head professional earlier today.  He concurred with me that the preferred side is the left side of the fairway as the opening to the green favors that side, but the rough is thicker on the left side than on the right side, so he concurs with you that the safer miss of the fairway is to the right.  This was the advice he gave Mickelson when he walked the course with him prior to the 05 PGA.  He also said that the hole is difficult and he is always happy to find the fairway, on either the right or left side.

The Pro's answer may be a push, but the Mucci-Wolffe challenge match will settle all accounts very soon!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rick,

I think this hole may get played very differently at match versus medal play.

In medal play, I see conservative play since the hole occurs so early in the round and a high number is very possible if you're not careful.

At match play, the golfer might be more risk oriented, depending upon how he's played # 1 and # 2

[Ben Voelker]

Hi Brian,

The "rim" around the greens at Bethpage Black, those areas that raise up around them especially from the front corner around to front corner, actually define the green complex from the surrounding fairway entrances and rough around the green and are all Tilly. Their purpose is not drainage; the greens themselves handle that very well in even the most severe weather. One just has to look at films of the '09 & '02 Opens to see that. Rather, these defining mounds do just that, they define the green complex and show where he expected the putting surfaces to be cut to which typically was to the crest of the mound and so that a noticable "rimming" of the putting surface could often be seen in photographs of greens during his time there. This is similar to many of the greens he designed and built everywhere.



And so with that in mind, now look at another from Bethpage Black, this one from the 7th fairway. Taking special note of how the back half of the green rises dramatically behind up to the surrounding rear mounds as areas of rough rather than putting surfaces:


Now consider just how much putting surface has been lost here by recognizing all of this rough area as what should have been putting surface leading up into the face of the mounding in the back right:


That is why those who think of these greens as being flat are in error for they are only looking at what is in actuallity the inner two-thirds of the original putting surfaces...

Philip (and anyone who might know!),

With all the work that has gone on at BPB over the past 10 years, has there been any thought/discussion about restoring the original green size?  It seems like the course could be more interesting on a daily play basis and wouldn't those rims drive the pros crazy for US Opens?  Other than cost, I don't see the downside to restoring these rims around the greens to being part of the green.

[Phil_the_Author]

Ben,

Yes, there has been some conversations along those lines. In fact, for the 2009 Open the front of the 8th green was restored, the top back of the 11th green was partially recovered, the back of the 14th green was recovered and a small piece of the front right extension was recovered.

I'm actually going to be there this Thursday and that topic will be discussed. If you're going to be at Pat Mucci's gathering on Monday, ask Mike Davis about it. He and I have been speaking on it for several years now as well.

[Ben Voelker]

Philip,

Thanks for that.  I wish I could be around for some of these things, but I'm a long way from home I'm afraid.  I will definitely keep an eye on these things to see what happens.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The Mucci-Wolfe challenge was held early this evening on the 3rd hole at Baltusrol lower.

Present were three very imPARTIAL judges !  !  !

Rick Wolfe, Bob Trebus, Phil Young and myself.

My contention was that the 3rd hole cannot be played down the left side of the fairway with the ball coming to rest in the DZ next to the left side rough due to the dogleg nature of the hole, the dense trees lining the left side of the fairway and the right to left slope of the fairway.

Rick maintained that the ideal angle of approach is the left side of the fairway, immediately adjacent to the left rough.
A position valid in theory, but, not in practice

In addition, we disputed the golfers ability to hit a low running shot, landing over the fronting creek, but, short of the green, which would run onto the green.

While it may be disputed, the DZ is probably located 220 to 150 from the center of the green.
At that point, the fairway slopes down and right to left, making for an awkward lie, although, the further the drive is hit, the less steep the fairway slope.




We played the tee behind the tee where the black lines start

Phil Young flipped a coin, I called "heads", heads it was, so I gave Rick the honor.
Now Rick had not hit any warm up shots, was in a shirt and tie, so he was at a clear disadvantage.

Rick teed his ball up on the RIGHT side of the tee ( a classic mistake in my book) and proceeded to hit a very high tee shot that now probably resides in the pond short of the 4th green.  Rick then hit a second tee shot.... same result.  And a third..... same result.

I now teed my ball up and hit a drive into the right rough.
Then, I proceeded to hit 8 drives right down the center of the fairway, 150 to 180 from the green.

Rick was out of ammo, so, I went into my bag and gave him more balls.
Same results, although he did hit one into the far right woods.

Then Phil Young said that he could hit a high fade into the fairway.
I gave him some balls.
Results, deep into the left woods.

Fast forward.
We're sitting in the club grille.
The President, a very cordial fellow is summoned to the table by Rick.
Rick asks him, "where's the ideal spot to hit your tee shot on # 3 ?"
He responds, " The right center of the fairway"

Back to the 3rd fairway.

With the overhangnig trees tight to the left side of the fairway, the dogleg nature of the hole, the downhill right to left slope of the fairway in the DZ, the left rough, fronting creek, and bunkered green, I think all but Phil, think that the proper drive is to the right center of the fairway with a draw, NOT down the left side and not down the center with a draw, as the dangers of those shots, far outweigh the benefits.

As to the approach shot, there's no doubt that the left side is the prefered side to come in from, BUT, as YOGI said, "you can't get there from here"  

From one of my drives, about 160 from the flag, Rick hits a 6-iron to about 6 feet.

I go back to 180-190 and hit 5 4-irons, from a downhill sidehill lie.
4 hit the green with a cut and the other is pulled left of the green.

There's no way, from 200, 180 or 160 that a low, running shot, that barely clears the creek, but lands short of the green, is the prefered shot.

It's an aerial shot all the way, EXCEPT if you're foolish enough to pull or hook your drive into the left rough, then depending upon your lie, a running shot may be the shot of choice, but only because of the heavy roug, or low overhaning branches from the big trees.

I think Judge # 1, Bob will side with me.
I think Judge # 2, Rick will side with me.... reluctantly.
But, the EAST GERMAN Judge, Judge # 3, Phil, will refuse to side with me, clinging to the notion that AWT intended that a low draw to the left edge of the fairway is the shot of choice.

And, it may have been, but that was when golfers hit drives like line drives, not howitzers, which is today's game.

In addition, we all agreed that with Persimmon, we could turn the ball more, but that it was harder to draw the ball, especially with the mental image of those trees and double bogey or worse staring you in the face on the left side of that fairway.

When we were finished, I was short 6 golf balls due to the failure of the RICK/PHIL tee shot experiment.

In medal play, that's two strokes.
In match play, probably loss of hole, unless the other bozo hit's it out of play LEFT as well.

You can recover from the deep right rough.
You can't recover from the deep left rough,
And, you definitely CAN'T recover from the pond on # 4

After golf we toured the course and then had a great meal and even better discussions.

Bob, Rick & Phil,

Thanks for a great afternoon and evening.

[Rick Wolffe]

Not sure if any opinions were changed as a consequence of the Mucci-Wolffe challenge.    Although, we would likely all agree that 3 Lower is a very difficult par 4 from tee to green.

One thing is certain, Pat sure can hit the golf ball!  Although the impartial judges are considering whether Pat's hour spent in the Baltusrol's new learning center before the challenge constituted and unfair advantage.  

Nevertheless, I think when the judges rule they will concur that the preferred side of the fairway is from the center line to the left side, and you can get there from the tee.  

Pat hit about a dozen tee shots, from the left side of the tee box and almost all of them hit the fairway.  And none of them was a draw...they were either straight or cutting slightly from left to right.  His shot pattern in the fairway was very cool...with 8 or 9 balls in the fairway with the shortest around 190 yards from the green.  His three longest drives landed left of center, on the center line and right of center and were around 160 to 165 yards from the green.  

From 190 yards in the fairway Pat hit around five shots from the left side of the fairway and five from right side of the fairway.  Amazingly, he hit the green with every shot, and his more difficult lie was on the right side of the fairway with a sidehill-downhill stance.  The pin was tucked in the far left corner of the green.  I also seem to recall that Pat said if the pin was on the right side of the green he would not attack it and would play safe and go up the open side of the green on the left.

On one of Pat's shots from the left side of the fairway. He hit it a bit thin and the ball took off on a low but hot trajectory toward the open side of the green, the ball landed 10 yards short of the green in the approach ramp, and low and behold, it ran right up onto the green! When the ball came to rest on the green, I burst into a victory cheer, and looked over to the judges imploring them to call the match in my favor!



 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rick,

One of the things I noticed was how effective the tree removal program has been.
It's certainly enhanced the golf course dramatically.
But, don't stop now.  More needs to be done.

On the shot I thinned, that landed short and rolled onto the green, I honestly don't know how I'd hit that shot if that was the result I was trying to get.

Maybe I'd take a 3-iron and choke it down and punch it, but, off that downhill/sidehill lie, getting the ball to clear the brook that crosses in front of the green, landing short of the green, and roll between the bunkers is an awfully tall order, one that I might pull off for fun, but, I'm not so sure I could pull it off under pressure.

Jamie Slonis makes valid points about the play of # 3.

And, the approach shot you hit would be my shot of choice every time from 160, 180 or 200.
You hit a nice high 6-iron to 6-8 feet.
No risk of the creek, no risk of the fronting bunkers, so why chance all those bad things with a difficult shot when you can hit a normal aerial shot to the center of the green.

In a medal play round, you can't chance hugging the left side of the fairway off the tee.
Only BAD things can happen to your ball

The play is clearly to the right side of the fairway off the tee, with a slight draw, getting the ball to the center or right of center.
Even a ball in the right rough can be hit to the green.

I think the judging panel has to recuse themselves.

I'll let the President's opinion prevail on this issue and this issue ONLY !

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