[Patrick_Mucci]

his EVOLVING or CHANGING style ?

In some cases his greens are large, such as Bethpage and Baltusrol Lower.

In other cases, they're quite small, such as Fenway, Ridgewood and Old Oaks.

In some cases they're relatively flat, void of countour, like at Bethpage.

At other courses they're highly sloped or contoured, such as Baltusrol Upper, Fenway, Somerset.

Were the character of his greens site dependent ?

Or were they a reflection of his evolving style ?

Has anyone crafted a time line that tracks his treatment of putting surfaces ?

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat,

Here are some answers:

"his EVOLVING or CHANGING style ?"

From his first course at Shawnee to his very last design, Tilly remained remarkably unchanging in several aspects of green complex designs. Note that I view this differently than you Patrick as you seem to be asking ONLY about the putting surfaces. For Tilly the putting surfaces were first and foremost extensions of the green entrances and then as part of the entire complex of surrounding hazards and rough. He considered this, the entrances, by far the most import aspect in a hole's design. Consider the photo on the Shawnee design thread that intrigued you both. Take careful note of how the front entrance rises directly out of the lay of the land and rolls into the green. There is no artificial raising of the land there.

I mention that because Jeff stated on that thread, "However, they aren't elevated as later greens like Winged Foot were.  A result of budget, his charge at WF, or an evolution in thinking?" Jeff, look carefully at WF's greens and you'll see this same aspect. Even where Tilly raised the putting surfaces these were mostly center to back and followed the lines of how the fairway leads into them. He did the same thing at Shawnee and more than 23 years later did the same thing at Bethpage.

Jeff, you also asked, "As to bunkering, is this like MCC where the bunkering was purposely left to later after play established where they should be?  Or does the photo just happen to show three holes that Tillie deemed didn't need any bunkers because of the creek, trees, etc.?" Tilly did a design that included the bunkers at Shawnee's original course. He even wrote an article in which he described how in the winter of 1910-11, before the course was open for play, that there was a flood which covered the island. After the water receeded they were stunned to see that the dugout bunkers were filled with extremely fine river sand and so the planned filling of them that was to take place in the spring before the opening didn't happen. Tilly added a number of new bunkers of varying size, types and locations in the redesigned course of 1912-13 which also lengthened the course by 500 yards. He would add more bunkers through the years, including in preparation for the 1938 PGA.

"In some cases his greens are large, such as Bethpage and Baltusrol Lower." Yet in the case of Bethpage the greens were originally much larger still, by at least 25%.

"In other cases, they're quite small, such as Fenway, Ridgewood and Old Oaks." Again, in comparison to the ones above, it shows that for Tilly SIZE really didn't matter. He varied green sizes throughout his designs.

"In some cases they're relatively flat, void of countour, like at Bethpage." Pat, during WW II the Black course was closed (as was also the Blue) and had minimal maintenance done on it at best and great amounts of putting surfaces were lost. So what you see since then is actually only the inner two-thirds, yet even these have far more contour than most realize. True, it is not the dynamic contours of a Fenway or 5 Farms, but still there is a good amount of gentle movement in them which is why at the green speeds cut (13-15) at both Opens they gave fits to the players. No one putted lights out in either of them. Finally, if you looked at the greens from the point of view of all the lost areas of putting surface you would find these areas to be dramaticaklly contoured and quite similar to Winged Foot's.

"At other courses they're highly sloped or contoured, such as Baltusrol Upper, Fenway, Somerset. Were the character of his greens site dependent ?"

Most definitely yes. Once again this was due to the importance that he gave to the green entrances and how it would flow out of the fairways.

"Or were they a reflection of his evolving style?" Wouldn't you say that every architect who has practiced over a period of nearly 30 years has aspects of evolving style?

"Has anyone crafted a time line that tracks his treatment of putting surfaces?"

I have a timeline that is unfinished that deals with exactly that and more. It tracts what he did in every aspect of golf course design, from tee to green and all in-between. It is part of my Tilly Volume II and so just as I have not given that information when questioned on other threads I will not do so here. It is not finished or ready for publishing and when it is (hopefully in about two years) I will be more than happy to discuss it and answer any and all questions.

I hope some of this helps...

[Rick Wolffe]

Not sure if I have any good answers to Pat's question...certainly Tillinghast designed variety.  He did write about the major factors that would influenced the design and shape of his greens.  The natural terrrain had a heavy influence, and the shot value for the golf hole was another major influence.  For instance, he wrote that a true three-shot hole should have a green designed and heavily fortified to receive a pitch shot with the third, and he mentioned on several occasions that he and CB MacDonald had disagreed on this as MacDonald believed that all 3 shotters should have a green that is open to receive a long running second shot to the green.

This topic raises some related questions for me on the Tillinghast's design style and how it evolved over his career.  It seems to me that Shawnee was his laboratory, where he spent the first decade of his career experimenting and developing his unique style which relied on nature and any holes that were manufactured were made to look as natural as possible.  Another unrelated question, is if Shawnee is restored, does it come back to the 1911 course or the course of the 1920's?

In Tillinghast's early writings he tallked about building replica holes and how he had issues with the work of CB/Raynor/Banks going as far as to state that a copy hole ran the risk of being a second rate imitation.  However, in some of his early designs, didn't he build a few nice replica holes like the Redan at Somerset?

Also, in some of his early designs didn't he incorporate some of the features that he would rail against in his writings, for instance, he build some choclate drops or what he called alpinzation at Shawnee, Somerset, and Shackamaxon.  Where there other courses where he did the same?

My final question is which of Tillinghast's courses may have been the most important in shaping and making his career?

[Phil_the_Author]

Rick,

Evidently you don't believe that U.S. Park Ervice employees visit this website! 

[Neil Regan]

... For Tilly the putting surfaces were first and foremost extensions of the green entrances and then as part of the entire complex of surrounding hazards and rough. He considered this, the entrances, by far the most import aspect in a hole's design. ...

Phil,

  That was the subject of the quote I selected this year to use in our Tilly Cup program.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Neil,

That's a very interesting quote.

I wonder if it justifies a recent fad in maintainance where the approach is double cut, to lower than fairway height, but, higher than green height ?

[Tom MacWood]

Bethpage-Black's greens tell me - based on their lack of internal contours - that Tilly was not involved in their construction.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I really like Tillys concept here with the approach and green as one, but going through holes in my head I'm kind of hard pressed to find tons of outstanding examples. So many holes of his require aerial attack, how many holes at Bethpage have rough in front of the green and how many of the pushup greens at WF can honestly be played along the ground? At the same time the way the fairway and green meld together at QR 13, WFW 10, BPB 4 circa 2008 immediately jump to find as perfection.

I'm the biggest Tilly fan out there, but I like him more for his theory rather than practice here.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jaegr,

On Bethpage Black, holes, 1, 4 (the entrance is from the right side, 7, 11, 12, 13 & 15 are all perfect examples of how Tilly brings the putting surface directly out from the fairway entrances Holes 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10, 14, 15 17 & 18 have green sites that are raised up from the entrances as a natural feature of the terrain and therefor can not have the fairway entrances invovled in their design and/or are par threes.

The only exception to this is the ninth, and here Tilly designed the hole as a near boomerang hole of 288 yards and so expected the second shot to be played into it with a very lofted club and therefor placed a fronting bunker to it.

The greens on the Black are pure Tillinghast.

[Jaeger Kovich]

his EVOLVING or CHANGING style ?  CHANGING


Were the character of his greens site dependent ? ABSOLUTELY. LOOK AT THE WAY HIS STYLE CHANGES AS MOVE UP THE HILL FROM MAMARONEK, TO SCARSDALE. FLAT WF GETS PUSH UP GREENS, ROLLING QR GETS LESS EARTHWORK, THE STEEPNESS OF FENWAY OR BALTUSROL UPPER HAS MORE RUGGED CONTOURS

 

Has anyone crafted a time line that tracks his treatment of putting surfaces ? NEVER REALLY CONSIDERED HIS TIMELINE, IN MY MIND, I ALWAYS WENT STRAIGHT TO THE SITE

[Jaeger Kovich]

Phillip - The quote is talking about his impact on the construction process of golf and "the immaculate preparation of approaches to greens"... Using naturally terraced approaches without fairway, as you say, would not have any impact on any construction process... that would be more his preference for routing on certain property types in my book.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jaeger,

Soprry buddy, but I disagree with you. look at them carefully and you'll see that in each case they rise directly from the fairway levels until they become putting surfaces. These fairway entrances flow into the contours and the contours are an extension of them. Each and every part of which was designed and man-made and not part of the natural terrain.

You need to expand your book! 

By the way, can you explain your previous post? It seems just a copy of a few of Pat's comments and my answers to them.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Phillip - As Ron Burgundy says "Agree to disagree"! The previous post in question, was Pat's questions and my answers... honestly didn't even realize they were that similar till now, I skimmed your post, but definitely didn't read every word of it, no offense. We always seem to take the same facts and interpret them in opposite ways.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jaeger,

No problem... and I don't blame you for not reading all of my posts! I need to get you out there on BB with me and point those aspects out to you. I guarantee you'll change your mind. 

[Mike Policano]

At Ridgewood, Tillie's practice matched the theory. Of the 27 holes, you can run it up on 18 of them.

[Steve Lapper]

And at Dellwood, which possesses an excellent set of original Tilly greens, every one of the originals (save for the 2 bastardizing by Mitchell and RBA), melds up from the fairway with run-ups.

[Phil_the_Author]

And for those that haven't played Dellwood, make arrangements to do so! You will absolutely love the greens, starting at the entrances...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bethpage-Black's greens tell me - based on their lack of internal contours - that Tilly was not involved in their construction.

Tom,

There's very little internal contour on Baltusrol Lower's greens, so I don't think you can draw that conclusion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

At Ridgewood, Tillie's practice matched the theory. Of the 27 holes, you can run it up on 18 of them.

Mike,

My count is slightly lower.

Which greens do you count as run-ups, effective run ups considering terrain and/or normal ball flight.

[Patrick_Mucci]

And at Dellwood, which possesses an excellent set of original Tilly greens, every one of the originals (save for the 2 bastardizing by Mitchell and RBA), melds up from the fairway with run-ups.

Steve,

Is a restoration in the future ?

[John Moore II]

Bethpage-Black's greens tell me - based on their lack of internal contours - that Tilly was not involved in their construction.

Tom,

There's very little internal contour on Baltusrol Lower's greens, so I don't think you can draw that conclusion.

I have read this thread with interest, but not contributed because I did not have much original to add. But I do have a question about both these statements. Given that Baltusrol Lower was redesigned/renovated once by Robert Trent Jones and again by Rees Jones, and that Bethpage Black was renovated at least once by Rees Jones (possibly other renovations that I do not know about earlier) is it not possible that the greens that are seen at those places today are nothing like the original Tillinghast greens and simply flatter greens put in place to allow the course to host major championships? (I mean no disrespect or anything, this is a legitimate question)

[Phil_the_Author]

John,

For Bethpage Black, the greens, with the exception of the 18th, were not touched. IN fact, they weren't touched the FIRST time the course was renovated. Very few people are aware that even happened, but both the Black and Blue courses were cl;osed during WW II and practically nothing was done to them maintenance-wise to save costs. It was at this time that the greens on all of the courses, but especially these two, lost a great deal of their putting surfaces. Unlike many Golden Age courses that lost surface area through a long and slow decline in maintenance, those at Bethpage were dramatically shrunk and when they were re-opened, as in the case of the Black and Blue courses, their putting surfaces were never restored to what they actually were size-wise.

Reporting on the work, the Sayville News of May 18, 1945, stated "The Black Course, which has been closed for the past three years, is being rehabilitated as quickly as possible so that it can be put back into use for play in the autumn..."

The Brooklyn Eagle, on August 22, 1945, reported that, "Only two of the four 18-hole courses had been in operation during the war but work had been underway for several months in getting a thrid course into shape... Temporarily the newly reopened course will be available only on Saturdays, Sundays and Holidays in order to give it the 'rest periods' needed to get it back to first class playing condition..."

So Bethpage Blacks greens, except 18, are as Tilly designed and built them, except they are now much smaller. This we know because of photographs of many of the greens taken in the 1930s and from right after the war and into the 1950s...

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKM,

How did Rees Jones redesign/renovate BL ?

Rees Jones did not alter the existing putting surfaces at BL

[Steve Lapper]

And at Dellwood, which possesses an excellent set of original Tilly greens, every one of the originals (save for the 2 bastardizing by Mitchell and RBA), melds up from the fairway with run-ups.

Steve,

Is a restoration in the future ?

Pat,

   Dellwood (and the name may well be changed in the future*), is about to undergo a major "rejuvenation!" The immensely talented Jim Urbina is on board (with his first solo work on the East Coast!!) to restore, renovate, and thus rejuvenate, the terrific layout that Tilly originally created as Adolph Zukor's (founder of Paramount Pictures) private estate in the early 1900s.

   The course is a Tilly gem set in a bucolic rolling valley just a mile or so West of the Hudson River and a few miles north of the Tappan Zee Bridge. It's approximately 40-50 minutes north of NYC. Though Phil Young is better equipped to tell the story, the club has been down a bumpy road over the years, but the course has remained mostly intact, suffering only from heavy tinkering by Mitchell in 1951 (and a near attempt by RTJ in 56), and some haphazard and misaligned bunkering of a few years back. The primary disguise that has kept Dellwood buried beneath the radar, has been it's overcrowding by flora and fauna over the years. The original Tilly green complexes are as good as anywhere!! The surfaces are well maintained poa annua, capable of challenging the lowest of handicaps, and fortunately, their subtleties were left mostly untouched.

   Over the years a number of Tilly's fairway and greenside bunkers have disappeared, or moved, but a herculean effort recently undertaken by the ad hoc team of our own George Bahto and Phil Young has discovered several of the old maps and many of the original placements. The club is also lucky to have the skills and passion of one of the MGA's best young superintendents, Brian Chapin. Like Cliff Moore at Mountain Ridge, Brian and his team will eventually mark their places among the game's finest young talents.

   The real coup d'etat was the club's recent hiring of Jim Urbina. This move by the club's new owners (a very well-respected NJ RE family) marks the major shift of the club's desire to reveal the course's genius. Jim and the inimitable Gil Hanse were both invited to visit and evaluate the property. Needless to say, we were excited and thrilled to have two of the game's finest architectural talents enthusiastic about restoring this terrific course.

   Jim arrived with mild skepticism about such an unsung East Coast track, but was instead pleasantly surprised to find this Tilly gem lying near buried beneath too many trees and poorly planned past interference. He spent several days walking the property, carefully noting which strategies needed revival and what changes, if any, should be attempted to further remind the ardent golfer they were on special golfing ground. Jim and Brian hit it off, and between them their artistic passions reminded me of watching a crack team from the Louvre** plan on restoring a Rubens painting to it's original brilliance.

   The work may take some time, as all good things do, but I want to encourage any and every GCA'er to plan a visit to see the "before," and later, the "after!" This project is really an exciting one to be involved in, seeing a hidden treasure discovered by the best of the golfing world's talents, and painstakingly rejuvenated into the classic sporty course it so richly deserves. Participating and witnessing the protection, preservation and task of leaving a place in better shape than we found it is a traditionalist's dream come true.

    I've made arrangements to make the course and club available for play over the course of the next year on a very accessible basis (a very,very minimal fee...and small contribution to GCA is what I had in mind, both not to exceed a cumulative $50-65). While I hope to have more to offer to us at Pat's upcoming MRCC soiree, please feel free to contact me if you'd like to see/play/visit the course anytime in the near future.

  

*We might have a GCA-sponsored naming contest.

**Every affront intended to the tie francophilia to our domestic friends and talents

  

[Rick Wolffe]

On Tillinghast's early courses did he design/build replica holes/greens? 

Some of the greens/holes at Somerset come to top of mind like the Redan (#2) and the swale/valley running thru the middle of the 13th green.  Would these qualify as purposely built replica features, or unique variations dicated by the natural terrain, which by coincidence bear a striking resemblance to some of the great features found on Scottish links?

Are there other examples in his early work or his later work?

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