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Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #275 on: November 17, 2010, 02:58:09 PM »
"......you don't even mention anything about it because you see how stupid your vain attempt to appear knowledgeable on this subject failed."



No, Philip, I don't believe you or any of us can assume that Tom MacWood sees THAT and I'm afraid THAT is the real problem with both him and these kind of threads he starts and then drones on endlessly page after page after page!



This thread started in mid-September. If you check I believe you will find this thread was resuscitated several times by others, not me. Some people just can't enough of it and me, including you.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #276 on: November 17, 2010, 03:03:27 PM »
TMac,

Enlighten me. I don't understand why he isn't answering these simple questions. In fact, I thought he already answered them multiple times.  Of what are you speaking?

Thanks.

Some possible reasons:
1. He doesn't know the answer
2. He knows the answer, but would prefer not to paint Tilly in a negative light
3. He has no source
4. His feeling are hurt

...should I go on?

Phil_the_Author

Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #277 on: November 17, 2010, 03:13:51 PM »
Sorry Tom, but we all know why YOU AREN'T answering the questions. Once again you put up two more posts and fail to answer the question asked of you.

It is YOU who stated that Tilly made the claim of being the the Dean of American Born Architects. I asked you to PROVE that he did. You keep avoiding that. You stated that he made this grand statement because of the rudimentary course he designed in 1898 . I asked you to provide the facts and proof that he did that. It is YOU who is making unsupportable claims and refusing to provide the proof for them. So asnwer the question that was FIRST asked of you before anything asked of me.

You are correct; I stated in my biography that Tilly and Worthington discussed building a golf course "as early as 1907." Where did I get that information from? I already answered that. Tilly himself wrote of it. You can certainly find it if you so choose. By the way, others wrote of it as well...

Who designed Buckwood Inn? Again, I'm not giving you the answer. I told you several places where you could locate the information. Go get it yourself just as I did.

I would have given you all of this information and more; quite gladly as I share a geat deal of what I have found openly with many. I refuse to share anything with a classless man who called me a liar, admitted doing so and refused to apologize for it despite numerous attempts on my part to settle it amicably and in private. And you have the audacity to now say, "You're right I should be more understanding of Phil's feelings, we all should be, he is very sensitive and prone to drama queen episodes now and again."

Tom you are a hypocrite and full of disingenuous crap. You waste everyone's time here. You started this thread as a direct attack against what I posted on the other thread and have continued your silliness throughout.

You mention the emails to Ran, "I understand Ran has a boat load of emails to prove this..." Of course you are aware of them as a number of them were CC'ed to you by me. What you copnveniently leave out are the emails Ran sent back to me including one where he told me to go ahead and "embarrass him" because he thought maybe that would be the only way you might learn not to slander people. Of course, since you obviously can't be embarrassed the idea of you learning that your behavior is wrong is also beyond you.

You stated, "I had no idea that suggesting Worthington may have assisted Tilly would create such a furor, after all this is a discussion group, and I continue to think it is a distinct possibility. Sue me."  

Actually the "furor" as you put it, was caused by your slanderous allegation that I lied about having the Shawnee Inn and CC's original documents including board minutes. My posting the cover and two pages from them weren't enough "proof" for you that I had them of course and so why should you have been a man and apologized.

No Tom, no need to sue the stupid and ignorant...

Phil_the_Author

Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #278 on: November 17, 2010, 03:17:42 PM »
So Tom,

Explain why YOU won't answer the questions asked of you? Why YOU won't provide the facts and proof asked of you?

I've been quite clear as to why i wouldn't answer in the past and why I won't answer you now. I have actually answered a number of these questions privately for some who have asked. But I will not dignify the horsecrap that you have flung at me with with any answers because you have proven yourself to be unworthy of the help.

I guess that answer would be in the "Should I go on" category that you listed after the first four were all blatantly incorrect.  :P

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #279 on: November 17, 2010, 03:18:24 PM »
TMac,

I need to go out for a while, but in Phil's post 271 he appears to say that tillie never called himself that, and that is was you who suggested it.  He then asks you to support your claim.  Is that not an answer and if not, can you point out where Tillie actually did say this?  I don't mean to put you through any real trouble, so if its not in this thread, or easily accessible don't worry on my behalf.

Its just that you two have some animosity and someone is talking right past the other, perhaps in both directions making it a bit hard to follow.

Again, thanks.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #280 on: November 17, 2010, 04:15:29 PM »
"This thread started in mid-September. If you check I believe you will find this thread was resuscitated several times by others, not me. Some people just can't enough of it and me, including you."

Tom MacWood:

And certainly including you. But unlike the rest of us it appears you have learned just about nothing from Phil after a couple of months and multiple pages. But then again, you never seem to learn anything from others on this DG or if you actually think you have, adimitting it!!

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #281 on: November 17, 2010, 07:57:17 PM »
"This thread started in mid-September. If you check I believe you will find this thread was resuscitated several times by others, not me. Some people just can't enough of it and me, including you."

Tom MacWood:

And certainly including you. But unlike the rest of us it appears you have learned just about nothing from Phil after a couple of months and multiple pages. But then again, you never seem to learn anything from others on this DG or if you actually think you have, adimitting it!!

What did you learn?

Phil_the_Author

Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #282 on: November 17, 2010, 10:58:57 PM »
.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 11:00:59 PM by Philip Young »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #283 on: November 17, 2010, 11:09:36 PM »
Annnndddds sssoooooooo PPPHhhhhhhiillllllllll,

What have you learnt from this thread? ;D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #284 on: November 18, 2010, 07:25:50 AM »
Tom MacWood:

I would say I've learned from this thread via the voluminous information Phil Young has contributed that it looks pretty conclusive that the architectural attribution for Shawnee should go to A.W. Tillinghast, even though I doubt that fact has ever really been in question.  ;)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 07:28:22 AM by TEPaul »

Rick Wolffe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #285 on: November 18, 2010, 08:52:46 AM »
 

;)



« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 08:55:03 AM by Rick Wolffe »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #286 on: November 18, 2010, 09:13:46 AM »
C'mon Rick, You know that Hymer must have drawn that back in 1898 and not "22" as he dated it. You know he had psychic abilities that would have allowed him to see into the past and the future and paint what Tilly was photographed doing at Winged Foot discussing the plans with his on-site foreman (the source of the drawing).

And even though the caption "A.W. Tillinghast, The Dean of American Born Architects" was the title of HYMER'S drawing, it simply must have been Tilly who created the phrase because of the magnificence of that rudimentary course he built in 1898 in Frankford where he taught the public to play golf for a few months that single late summer. So memorable that today they are literally thousands of students there... at the Frankford, Pa. High School that sits on the spot!

Of course, as Tom the Mac has now shown himself to be an admitted liar, see the Harry Colt thread where he led on Sean Arble with phony claims of documented proof of Harry Colt coming's and going's from the U.S. based upon British ship manifests, I guess based upon the scientific axiom that "it takes one to know one" more credence must now be given, even by me, to his claim that I lied on this and the other thread about having the Shawnee documents in my possession.

My, my... what are we to do...

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #287 on: November 18, 2010, 12:03:38 PM »
Tom MacWood:

I would say I've learned from this thread via the voluminous information Phil Young has contributed that it looks pretty conclusive that the architectural attribution for Shawnee should go to A.W. Tillinghast, even though I doubt that fact has ever really been in question.  ;)

That's new? No, I'm looking for specific new facts you learned. I take it you've read Phil's biography of Tilly. What new info did you pick up here that was not covered in the book?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 12:11:29 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #288 on: November 18, 2010, 01:41:52 PM »
Tom MacWood:

Perhaps there is no new information extant that Phil did not cover in the book. But even if there isn't I don't have much doubt that you might try to create some. You have a very consistent record of producing speculation and then continually maintaining it should be considered as fact. The HH Barker New York to Georgia train ride design of Merion East is definitely one of the best examples of that! ;)

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #289 on: November 18, 2010, 03:03:42 PM »
At nine pages I assume this means that Shawnee has officially replaced Merion.
Can't wait to see what course next becomes the bone of contention.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #290 on: November 18, 2010, 03:05:05 PM »
Annnndddds sssoooooooo PPPHhhhhhhiillllllllll,

What have you learnt from this thread? ;D

Hopefully not to pre-announce any projects here.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Phil_the_Author

Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #291 on: November 18, 2010, 03:40:50 PM »
Hi Ralph,

The next one? I believe that will be decided in a day or two when the next edition of Tillinghast Illustrated is released.

As far as not not pre-announcing any projects... I didn't. This started on another thread where Tom didn't like my example that tilly was inexperienced and untested as an architect when he designed Shawnee. He then claimed that Worthington was "greatl;y experienced" and an "associate" with Tilly in the design. That is what started this. I later explained that I had been hired to write the book and had all the documents, records, etc... in my possession at which point Tom called me a liar and here we are...

As far as announcements though...

Today it was officially announced by Charlie Kirkwood at a press conference at Shawnee that there are a number of special Centennary events planned throughout the year. One that I believe you'll be very interested in. It's highlighted for you!

One of the special celebrations is the Wedding Vows Renewal Weekend, June 25-26. In honor of the hundreds of couples who have held their wedding at Shawnee, a group ceremony will be held for couple to renew their vows, followed by a brunch. Also, each participating couple will be able to stay overnight for only $19.11 (in honor of the Inn’s 1911 opening).
 
As part of the wedding day celebration, Shawnee is conducting a world-wide search for the couple married at Shawnee who have been together the longest. The special “bride and groom” that emerge by March 30, 2011 will be invited to participate in the Wedding Vow Renewal and receive a complimentary two-night stay, compliments of the resort.
 
Another major celebration event is the Centennial Ball on May 21, which will be a traditional gala designed to connect the early years of Shawnee with today. Guest must be in either contemporary formal attire (black-tie optional), or may choose the more festive 1911 period dress.
 
As part of the theme to honor the past, Birthday Dinner celebrations to commemorate each of the resort’s key ownership figures will be held – honoring C.C. Worthington on Jan. 6, Fred Waring on June 9, and Charlie Kirkwood on Aug. 3. Each night, guests will select from popular dishes of each owner’s era for only $19.11 (again, in honor of Shawnee’s 1911 opening).
 
Other significant events in 2011 include the opening of the new Shawnee Museum on Jan. 5; a special Centennial Performance at the Shawnee Theater on May 20; the Shawnee Centennial book release party on May 3; the Centennial Hickory Classic golf tournament – using wood-shafted clubs – on Oct. 16; and the year-ending Centennial Winter Carnival on Dec. 31.
 




that the book would be released at a special presentation on May 3rd. He also announced that there will be a HICKORY Tournament on October

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #292 on: November 18, 2010, 04:13:24 PM »
They wanted me to get involved, but until I know what is happening with personal things, I just can't do much on the hickory golf event front. I wish them well and will be pleased to announce it on hickorygolf.com if they request it.
Hope I can be there as it will be on my birthday.

I guess I misunderstood the progression of info on this thread. It seemed like TMwood was trying to get all the good stuff out of you that would be announced in the book, which would not leave any surprises when it was out.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Phil_the_Author

Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #293 on: November 18, 2010, 04:29:52 PM »
Trust me Ralph, there will be a LOT of surprises and very unexpected historical information in it.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #294 on: November 18, 2010, 10:40:01 PM »
Tom MacWood:

Perhaps there is no new information extant that Phil did not cover in the book. But even if there isn't I don't have much doubt that you might try to create some. You have a very consistent record of producing speculation and then continually maintaining it should be considered as fact. The HH Barker New York to Georgia train ride design of Merion East is definitely one of the best examples of that! ;)

Have you read the book?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #295 on: November 19, 2010, 06:53:41 AM »
Phil
Tilly obviously promoted the idea of being the dean of American born architects. The image just posted appeared with an article he wrote. There is also an interview in 1928 where again he is referred to as the Dean, and also 'the pioneer of American golf architects." His first course in the 90s being the justification given in that article. Don't you think that claim is misleading? CBM, Emmet, George O'Neil (to name a few) all designed legitimate golf courses around or before the turn of the century and were still active well into the 1920s.

You wrote in your biography the two men (Worthington and Tilly) discussed building a golf course as early as 1907. What is the source for that?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #296 on: November 19, 2010, 08:51:51 AM »
TMac,

As I hinted earlier, it may be an exageration, but then so is much of marketing and its not like he didn't have some claim, at least by 1928, based on his volume of work then, or even in 1922.  BTW, your worlding says he is referred to, not he says he is the dean.  Was it his words, or those of his interviewer?

Anyway, "misleading" is a somewhat subjective concept when regarding marketing claims of gca's or others.  We can debate it forever, no?  BTW, what publication was that 1928 interview in? I am thinking that perhaps, if it was a Philly pub or NY they may not have recognized something like Chicago CC (the pre 1922 Raynor course and an early milestone) or at least didn't want to.....East coast bias couldn't have just started in our lifetime!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #297 on: November 19, 2010, 12:20:49 PM »
Do you understand how they are using the term Dean is this case? He is claiming to be the oldest/longest practicing golf architect. Either you are or you aren't, it has nothing to do with volume of work.

The interviewer used the term, but clearly Tilly was the source. In his Tilly biography Phil wrote, "It [the drawing in Golf Illustrated] was given the same self-proclaimed designation by which Tillinghast had begun referring to himself, the 'Dean of American Born Architects.'" Do you own Phil's book?

The interview was in a NY publication, and I think everyone familiar with golf (and golf architecture) in that city would have known Macdonald and Emmet's history, and Tilly obviously knew their history. He most likely knew O'Neil's history as well.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 12:25:31 PM by Tom MacWood »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #298 on: November 19, 2010, 02:09:18 PM »
I do own Phil's book on Tilly, but haven't looked up that passage.  I agree that Tillie probably coined it, or at least encouraged its use.

Dean of....probably means the longest practicing, but thought it might also sort of mean "head of the class" or some of both, in Tillie's mind.  In any event, it was a catchy marketing claim, and probably not in Tillie's mind needing to be 100% true.  Not unlike RTJ’s claim that the “sun never sets on the RTJ courses”, CBM’s claim of coining the term golf architect, or even a menu claiming “best hamburger in town”.

On the other hand, it probably had to have some basis in truth in case someone raised the question you do.  Off the top of my head, he may have felt that O’Neill was a part time designer until the 20’s (according to CW) and that CBM was Scot/Canadian and/or never took a fee, that he wasn’t American born or really a “Golf Course Architect”.  

It also occurred to me that the west coast guys (Hunter or Behr maybe?) critiqued Raynor when he went out there by dismissing his models and template holes as opposed to site specific design.  Maybe he dismissed CBM’s early work on that basis (as relating to who was the earliest practicing American Golf Course Architect)?

Any way you slice it, it was certainly an embellishment, as most marketing claims are to an extent and probably true only in a very narrow way.  Misleading? I don’t care for that choice of words.  It’s kind of negative in tone.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 02:11:00 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil_the_Author

Re: Who designed Shawnee?
« Reply #299 on: November 19, 2010, 02:33:43 PM »
Tom,

"Tilly obviously promoted the idea of being the dean of American born architects. The image just posted appeared with an article he wrote."

That is correct in that the IMAGE did appear on the page FOLLOWING the article. The real questions though are WHY did that image appear there, WHO is responsible for placing it there in the journal, WHAT is it depicting, WHO was responsible for creating it and WHO is it that titled it "The Dean of American Born Architects."

You are clearly trying to infer something from title, drawing and article and yet you obviously don't seem to know the answers to the above questions because if you did you wouldn't have written what you did.

Secondly, you responded to Jeff, "Do you understand how they are using the term Dean is this case? He is claiming to be the oldest/longest practicing golf architect. Either you are or you aren't, it has nothing to do with volume of work."

That is absurd and completely incorrect. He is NOT claiming that because he both wasn't and he also knew it! His FIRST design in his own mind and in ACTUALITY was Shawnee. You again show that you have no understanding whatsoever as to what the "RUDIMENTARY" course that he laid out in a Frankford park in 1898 was and what it was for and HOW LONG IT LASTED! You don't even appreciate WHY Tilly did it. You have my biography, go back and READ what Tilly actually wrote and the word "INVITED" might jump out at you this time! Why did Tilly say that?

Who "INVITED" Tilly to Frankford to lay out this rudimentary course and why? When you know the answer to those questions, and the ones above, you'll understand why your supposition is completely wrong.

"There is also an interview in 1928 where again he is referred to as the Dean, and also 'the pioneer of American golf architects." His first course in the 90s being the justification given in that article. Don't you think that claim is misleading? CBM, Emmet, George O'Neil (to name a few) all designed legitimate golf courses around or before the turn of the century and were still active well into the 1920s."

Tom, how about not PARAPHRASING the article but instead POST it. Let everyone see what it actually says so that little things such as CONTEXT and, as Jeff himself has already noted above, WHO it was that actually called him that. I will no longer comment on "facts" that you present unless you actually present them, though the real bottom line in this is what does how someone praised Tilly have anything at all to do with whether or not he designed Shawnee?

You are trying to show a level of expertise on a subject for which you have both admitted and clearly demonstarted you have very litlle. This is simply an attempt at obfuscation.

"You wrote in your biography the two men (Worthington and Tilly) discussed building a golf course as early as 1907. What is the source for that?"

I've answered that several times already. Tilly stated it and so did others. What is your problem with the date that DISCUSSIONS about a possible golf course began? Again, what was happening in 1907 with Worthington and Tilly that also prove this to be true?

Tom, you should quit trying to make something out of nothing.