Who designed Shawnee?

[Mike Cirba]

Ahh...yes...one can see the sure hand of CC Worthington's expert fingerprints all over it.    

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom - I wrote that first sentence before I found the IMO on the internet wayback machine.  I originally thought you discounted Tilly's work at BB, but I was wrong.  I read the article before I posted the link, but I didn't properly rephrase the first sentence.  I apologize.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Back to discussing Tillie's actual architecture, I don't think I see any green side bunkers in the three greens in that pic DM posted last night.  However, the greens look huge - at least 8000 SF.  The discussion would be more interesting to focus on the evolution of Tillie's thinking.  The greens look like Tillie (from the air) so he must have figured out what he liked from his outside study before undertaking any work.  However, they aren't elevated as later greens like Winged Foot were.  A result of budget, his charge at WF, or an evolution in thinking?

As to bunkering, is this like MCC where the bunkering was purposely left to later after play established where they should be?  Or does the photo just happen to show three holes that Tillie deemed didn't need any bunkers because of the creek, trees, etc.?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I think you've hit on something and I will start another thread on it

[Rick Wolffe]

In reading this post and trying to cut through all the "baiting" and "angry noise", directed at Phil Young and others, I'm sorry that more constructive dialogue on the evolution of Tillinghast's design principals and style can't take place over all the petty "BS."  I wish Phil would stop dignifying these guys with a response and I'm sorry that guys like Moriarty and MacWood feel and act the way they do.

Phil Young has done a tremendous amount of research on Tillinghast and much of his design work.  Much of the evolution of Shawnee was presented in an article written by Phil in the last issue of Tillinghast Illustrated on the Tillinghast Association web site at:

http://www.tillinghast.net/Tillinghast/Golf_Illustrated_files/TI%20March%20Final.pdf

We also posted a slide show of many of the historical photos that we have of the early Shawnee course at:

http://www.tillinghast.net/Tillinghast/shawn.html

It would be a great accomplishement in the golf world if this golf course could be brought back to Tillinghast some day soon.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jeff and Pat,

There is a brief course evolution history of Shawnee on the Tillinghast Association website. It details the ORIGINAL 1911 routing, the rerouted and redesigned 1912-13 course and changes through the years to where the course played to just under 7,000 yards for the 1938 PGA Championship. It can be found in the last issue of Tillinghast Illustrated. It will probably answer a number of your questions and provide you with the information for more. There is also a separate slide shows about Shawnee that can be accessed from the homepage that you will find interesting.

Pat, if you started another thread on the subject I'd be glad to answer any and all questions about it that I can.

Sorry Rick, our posts passed in the netherland of internet space...

[Mike Cirba]

Phil,

That slideshow is terrific.

[Phil_the_Author]

Thank YOu MIke. That is all Bob Trebus... Who is recovering fom back surgery...

[Ian Larson]

Tom Macwood,

Thanks for sending me the Country Club Life article from 1915. Im on the road and wont be able to post it until later tonight or this weekend. If you can do it sooner give it a shot.

Going over it on my iphone I dont see anything but just another document proving that it was Tilly and only Tilly doing the design at Shawnee. Even including a great shot of Tilly by himself during construction all dirty with the captiom stating Tilly (nobody else) as the architect.

I tried to look for an inference to anything that might insinuate that Worthington or anyone else might have had any hand in it and couldnt find anything. Not even a mention of any crew foreman. Its really a good article, but I dont think it does any justice for the "Who designed Shawnee" case if you are trying to research if anyone else was involved. So I dont see why this article would be a good start down that path.

Maybe I missed something. So i would be interested to hear yours and Dmoriarty's take on the article and why you feel its a good starting point.

[DMoriarty]

Last night on the Daily Show Jon Stewart announced his October 30, Washington D.C. "Rally to Restore Sanity" in response to the hyperbolic and irrational fear mongering which pervades our national discourse.  (And of course he is mocking Glen Beck.)  The rally will feature posters with messages such as "I disagree with you, but am pretty sure you aren't Hitler."  Not to be outdone, Colbert came out in support of the nastiness and called for a "March to Keep Fear Alive" on the same day and at the same place.    I couldn't help but think of this conversation and the website generally.  

Rick Wolfe,

I am not sure what thread you are reading.  If you go back and read this one you will see that most all of the nastiness is directed at me and Tom.  I've tried to get the thread going in a positive and productive direction multiple times, but as your post shows, the petty griping and snippy comments continue.   Your post and others like it keep us in the muck, despite what I am sure are your good intentions.

But let's let bygones be.  I've got no skin in this game and never have had any, and I'd like to see the conversation elevated above all the pettiness and bickering.  

__________________

Ian Larson,

I have never seen the article so I cannot comment on it.

_____________________________________________

TomM

If you'd like it posted sooner, email it and I'll try to get it posted.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

I often disagree with you, but I am also pretty sure you aren't Hitler.......  

Have a rational and sane day and weekend!

[Mike Sweeney]

In reading this post and trying to cut through all the "baiting" and "angry noise", directed at Phil Young and others, I'm sorry that more constructive dialogue on the evolution of Tillinghast's design principals and style can't take place over all the petty "BS."  I wish Phil would stop dignifying these guys with a response and I'm sorry that guys like Moriarty and MacWood feel and act the way they do.

Phil Young has done a tremendous amount of research on Tillinghast and much of his design work.  Much of the evolution of Shawnee was presented in an article written by Phil in the last issue of Tillinghast Illustrated on the Tillinghast Association web site at:

http://www.tillinghast.net/Tillinghast/Golf_Illustrated_files/TI%20March%20Final.pdf

We also posted a slide show of many of the historical photos that we have of the early Shawnee course at:

http://www.tillinghast.net/Tillinghast/shawn.html

It would be a great accomplishment in the golf world if this golf course could be brought back to Tillinghast some day soon.

These things sometimes get lost so thread bumping that slide show.

Rick W, Phil and/or Tom Doak,

I only played the current course the one time and obviously there is not much left of Tilly today. Is there room to restore the original 4 holes on the Inn side (off the island) of the course?

Any updates on timing, assuming it is still a possibility? The concept of restoration really sounds like they could create a unique niche for themselves.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

It is my understanding that the Restoration/renovation will take place, just a question of when. As for restoring the 4 holes on the Inn side of the Binniekill, Tom can speak better to that. The real plan, as I understand it, is to restore it as close to the 1938 PGA Championship course as reasonable. That course measured nearly 7,000 yards and was the product of years of changes by Tilly.

[Matt_Ward]

Been to Shawnee a number of times over the span of 30 years but even with the course changes to a main 18 the real issue always comes back to the potential for flooding. It's not a question of "if" but eventually "when."

[Mike Hendren]

These threads remind me of an extra set professional doubles tenant match:  Hundreds of people badly in need of exercise watching four people badly in need of a break.

Mike

[Andy Hughes]

Phil or Mike or anyone else who may know, is this old 18th green sitting back and to the right of the current first tee (between the hotel and the creek)?  Or is it over where the driving range is now or at least was 20 years ago?   

[Phil_the_Author]

Andy,

That green site is on the open grass area between the "fire pit" and the small open pavilion, just past where the parking lot ends. That area has been the site of a number of different guest amenities through the years since Fred Waring redid the course...

[Andy Hughes]

Thanks Phil. I never realized the course went that way  Does that mean the 18th played down what is now the driving range?  If so, the current 18th (I assume its still the 18th), the long par 3 to the sloping green, didn't exist then?

[Phil_the_Author]

Andy, below is the routing from an advertising brochure that tilly produced for the Shawnee CC the month before the course opened in 1911. Note where the 18th hole is:



Below is the new, rerouted and redesigned course ca. 1914:



I think you'll have a question...  

Photos courtesy of the Tillinghast Association website

[Andy Hughes]

Phil, OK, 1, 16, 17 and 18 actually look like I remember them from the early 1980s in the 1914 picture.  The original 1911 pic shows 18 where you described it. 

But the 1916 tournament picture shows 18 back where it was when the course opened.  Am I reading all that right?  And then at some point 16, 17 and 18 were AGAIN moved back to the locations they were in 1914?  Was all that rearranging Tilly?  Any idea why the back and forth?

[Phil_the_Author]

Andy,

You're getting there, but the answer lay in the 1914 drawing. Look carefully at it and you'll see a PRACTICE hole, a par-three opposite the front entrance and drive way and circle.

As can be clearly seen in the picture, the driveway, circle and front entrance are there, so this is actually the PRACTICE green from the practice hole and NOT the 18th green! The photo was mislabeled. Further proof is that this was taken during the 1919 Women's Amateur championship. Note how far away the spectators are where as other photos of the 18th green during this championship shows the spectators directly around the green and no driveway in sight!

By the way, do you see the trees fronting the entrance stairs? Here is how they looked from the veranda just a few years later...

[Chris_Blakely]

The main problem is that you can only add Tilly as a designer or one who altered / renovated the course, you can not take his name off of it!!!! 

[Andy Hughes]

Phil, well isn't that something!  Thanks for pointing that out.

So the current range does run down the path of the original 18th hole or awfully close.  Was the original 18th green what became the practice green? Seems they must be extremely close to the same location if not.

Do you know why they did all the rearranging of the holes on the hotel side of the river so soon?

[Phil_the_Author]

Andy,

When the course opened for play, the idea was to provide a place where Worthington and his friends could enjoy themselves ona good and challenging course. At 6,011 yards it was everything that they needed. During that year, and leading on into 1912, Worthington decided that he wanted to sponsor an "Open" tournament and offer considerable prize money to the professionals who would play. He believed that they deserved it and that it would certainly boost exposure to the Inn and golf course. His problem was that the course as it was, fine for himself and his friends, wasn't the superior challenge that he wanted for the best players. So Tilly did a complete redesign and re-routing adding about 500 yards in length.

This course received absolutely rave reviews and the Shawnee Open attracted the best players in the world in 1913 and onward. Players such as Vardon, Ray, Hagen, McDermott, Fred McLeod, Alex Smith and his brother and many, many others. Most are actually unaware that Sam Snead was the playing professional for Shawnee in the late 1930's, well before he would do so for that second-rate resort in Virginia... 

To asnwer your questions, no, the current range does not run down the path of the original 18th hole. Go back and take a careful look at the road leading to the front entrance of the Inn and where it runs to. It begins at the END of the street that Worthington Hall is on, and so the 18th hole ran parallel to the Delaware. Actually, portions of both the original 16th and 17th holes cross over what is now the driving range, Doak's Tillinghast challenge course and the Tillinghast Academy grounds.

The original 18th green PROBABLY was used for the new green for the practice hole. But I believe that it was changed to reflect the direction of the shots being hit into it.

[DMoriarty]

What happened to the Country Club Life article from July 1914?

Ian Larson indicated he would post it, but he's had it since last Friday and has not.   And this after mocking and ridiculing Tom MacWood for not posting it and otherwise not answering quickly enough.   To quote Ian Larson from September 17th, "Post the Country Club Life article for christs sake."