Who designed Shawnee?

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

I must apologize for one thing. You did ask a question that I didn't fully answer that I mentioned above.

"Also, regarding Tillinghast's career, by 1909 he had had other experiences that helped him with design, had he not?   Would it be fair to say that he had studied the matter by that point?"

I did answer that by my using the illustration you obviously didn't like.

It was followed by "Isn't the story that he spent some time at St. Andrews with Tom Morris?  He really wasn't in the category of not knowing anything more than the average clubby, was he?"

Yes he did in both 1898 and 1901. The true answer is that yes he did know FAR MORE than the average clubby. The reality is that there was no way for him to actually prove it without hiring him to do the job and it took agreat leap of faith to put someone who had never designed a course or built one before in charge of both aspects of the project... If his work turned out poorly then everyone would say "what a bad hire"; fortunately it didn't and Shawnee launched a great career.  

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

If you want an answer form me to any question then you must apologize for calling me a liar on this public forum. Don't and all you will get from now on is silence, something that I believe you actually will enjoy...

[Tom MacWood]

Phil-the-author
If you believe I called you a liar, I apologize. I don't believe I called you a liar. I said you were bluffing when you implied you had internal club documents/minutes that made your case. Have you presented any internal club documents?

[Ian Larson]

Tom Macwood did you not read what Phils been saying? He's not presenting internal club documents as agreed to the club. What the hell don't you get about that? The fact that he won't present them on a public board prove anything that Tilly was a co designer? Hardly. WhY don't don't you quit talking and post the Country Club Life article yourself. I'm interested to see what single shroud of evidence you have brought to the table has anything that represents, irrefutably, that Tilly did not design Shawnee. Quit telling Phil to do anything and man up on your own thread to support yourself.

[DMoriarty]

Phil, you need to take a deep breadth.

Look at you.  You are telling me what MY MOTIVES WERE and what I MEANT.  And when I set the record straight you are accusing me of calling you a LIAR??    I didn't call you a liar, Phil.   But you are absolutely wrong in every one of your accusations.

You need to back the hell up.  Don't tell me what my intentions were.  I know what they were.  Dont tell me what I meant.  I know what I meant.  Don't tell me that I demanded your documents.  I didn't.   If I had, you could show me where I had. You cannot, because I never did.

Now that you have gone back and looked at my old posts, you know I never demanded your documents.  Interesting you didn't bother to set the record straight.

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Ian Larson,  If you bothered to read the threads, you'd know that I never demanded that Phil turn over his documents.  I don't recall TM doing so either.  Yet here you are, ranting away as if you witnessed this yourself.   Next time try looking at the posts before you start throwing around accusations.

Also, what you think about what might piss me off is pure fiction.  What pisses me off is when people like you try put words in my mouth and attribute motives to me that aren't mine.  And it pisses me off when people like you don't even bother to read the threads first.   But you know what really pisses me off?  Nobody, but nobody, puts ketchup on a hot dog.
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Jeff Brauer,  

With you keeping score and Dan Herrmann in his usual cheerleader mode, I feel like I am at a grade school basketball game.     I don't know why I bothered wasting my time trying to turn this thread toward substance.   You guys are obviously more interested in playing games than actually figuring anything out.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom Macwood did you not read what Phils been saying? He's not presenting internal club documents as agreed to the club. What the hell don't you get about that? The fact that he won't present them on a public board prove anything that Tilly was a co designer? Hardly. WhY don't don't you quit talking and post the Country Club Life article yourself. I'm interested to see what single shroud of evidence you have brought to the table has anything that represents, irrefutably, that Tilly did not design Shawnee. Quit telling Phil to do anything and man up on your own thread to support yourself.

Ian
Relax, I don't believe I told Phil to do anything. I asked him a question, actually two questions.

Do you believe the internal club documents of Shawnee should be treated as some state secret? How many transformations has the resort had over the years, and is it even considered a private club today? Why would they care?

[Mac Plumart]

Oh...at the turn I love a ketchup covered hot dog and an ice cold Coca-Cola.

Don't hate me David!   

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

First, you did provide some substance with that fine post on various Shawnee documents and I am sure everyone appreciates that.  You also brought some goo.  While I see your point to Phil, I think its a wee bit overstated given the circumstances, and he is able to comment on the perception your statements create whether you feel you meant them that way or not. Communication is a two way street and you both flew off the handle a bit, did you not?

As to the scorekeeping, while tongue and cheek I think it might prove valuble for the reasons stated.  If there are 11 documents saying the same thing, or strongly implying it, and one that may imply something else, should we really be at someone's mercy who decides that is the ONE key document that tells us the truth?  I was trying to head off that whole "my interpretation"  can of worms in some sort of substantive way.  In other words, encourage us to look at the whole picture as it was presented by those who were there.  As of now, that is not a problem.  TMac implies that a not posted document is the most authoritative one, but won't post it, asking Phil to do his work for him.  

I agree with TePaul on that one - Gratuitous BS and nothing more.  For that matter, I don't agree with TMac repeatedly asking why the Shawnee dox should be treated as private when it has been explained to him that those who own them simply want it that way.  And maybe, Phil wants it that way so he can sell some books later on and recoup his/their costs.  Tmac puts himself in the unfortunate postiong of us thinking he is stubborn, an idiot, or yanking our chain with this thread.  None of those are really good options for him, are they?

So, I for one, won't even consider TMacs blathering on until he posts up some support for his own position, or someone is gracious enough to do it for him.  I suspect many would be with me.

[Ian Larson]

Dmoriarty

I have been reading this from the beginning and I'll call you out as to being very careful as to what you write and how you state things by skirting around it. You haven't demanded Phil produce documents but you continually say he needs to explain his stance. And that if he doesn't explain his stance he has no right to speak of it. Really? You can't be serious. That's some bullshit. Are you too dense to realize that for him to explain his stance he will be going into territory where he's divulging club document info? That doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand that. You and Phil both produced ample amounts of info pointing the finger to Tilly being the solo designer. Yet you say Tillys involvement in Shawnee is worth looking in to. So how about for shits and giggles you and Tom Macwood produce something that shows there was another designer taking on designer responsibilities at Shawnee. TMac has talked about the Country Club Life article but has yet to post it himself instead asking Phil to do it. TMac needs to bring SOMETHING to the table which he's failing miserably at. If you guys think Phils full of shit just say it and move on instead of this dead air pointless arguing about him not explaining and not producing. He's not going to. So if you feel it's worth looking in to and TMac feels he should produce documents. Why don't you guys make it easier on yourselves by proving Phil wrong with your OWN research and quit trying to draw it out of him. Post this Country Club Life article for christs sake. That's where it should begin right? So let's get on with it already. If Tilly in fact didn't design Shawnee let's prove it. It should be known if that's the case. But the reality is you are going to be hard pressed to present anything that proves that irrefutably.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom the Mac,

You absolutely called me a liar and admit so once again. "I said you were bluffing when you implied you had internal club documents/minutes that made your case."

First of all I didn't IMPLY a single thing. I flat out stated numerous times that I had complete, total and unfettered access to ALL the internal documents and made copies of everything relating to this and many other issues. Your use of the word "bluffing" has been taken by far too many people on this and the other thread that you called me a LIAR. Those exact words have been told to you over and over. As for your "apology" it is worthless on its face. You need to man up and admit what you did for it to have any true meaning.

That you have the audacity to ask "Have you presented any internal club documents?" after I have stated over and over again that I will NOT do so smacks of one who clearly is still making the same "accusation" which is the term you yourself used. All of this Tom because you refused to accept that Worthington wouldn't have hired an "untetsted and inexperienced" person to design and build Shawnee in 1910.

While we're on the issue of credibility, earlier in this thread you stated that you had "no idea" who designed Shawnee. Really? Then why did you post on the other thread "Phil-the-author, Are you disputing the fact that CC Worthington had a wealth of experience?  If you don't think Worthington was actively involved in the design of Shawnee I've got a used car I'd like to sell you, it was owned by a little old lady who only drove it to church on Sundays."

Also on credibility, after I had asked you a question nearly half a dozen times on the other thread you stated, ""Phil-the-author, I'm sorry...I rarely read your posts....what is your question?"

Do you remember how I responded? I ended it with a question you still haven't answered and if you desire ANY credibility you must own up to this as well:

Tom the Mac,

I thought about it for a minute, and whether you answer my question or not is of no significance because there really is no way you can defend your statement in light of what Tilly was doing at Shawnee.

What I feel I must comment on is your insulting and sarcastic statement, "Phil-the-author, I'm sorry...I rarely read your posts....what is your question?"

NONSENSE!

If that was true, on this thread why would YOU answer my question in post #31 as you did in #35?
If that was true, on this thread why would YOU answer my question in post #37 as you did in #38?
If that was true, on this thread why would YOU answer my answer in post #44 as you did in #45?
If that was true, on this thread why would YOU answer my answer in post #46 as you did in #47?
If that was true, on this thread why would YOU answer my new comment in post #50 as you did in #52?
If that was true, on this thread why would YOU answer my comment which ONCE AGAIN contained the question you were ignoring in post #56 as you did in #57 while ignoring the question once again?
If that was true, on this thread why would YOU respond to my reply to your #57 with an answer in #60, where I AGAIN asked the question, with a response in #62 where you once again ignored the question?
I responded in #67 and once AGAIN asked the question to which you SARCASTICALLY responded in #68 with "Thanks."

Who do you think you are kidding with "Phil-the-author, I'm sorry...I rarely read your posts....what is your question?"

You want answers to questions you ask me? Answer those...

[Tom MacWood]

Ian
I have not posted the article because the site no longer provides a picture posting option. As I said before I have no idea who did what at Shawnee, and that was after reading that particular article. That article does not prove anything IMO, but it does present an interesting perspective.

[PThomas]

if the rest of us ignore this thread it will die a quick death

[Tom MacWood]

if the rest of us ignore this thread it will die a quick death

I think you just extended one more post, two because I responded to you.

[Ian Larson]

...............aaaaaaaand do you care to share with us the perspective you speak of TMac? If you can't post that article how were the other two able to post articles? Let's here this perspective though as it seems it's your only sliver of anything. Honestly I think your just dead in the water with this and this thread is going to end up being useless and only motivated to try and prove Phil wrong and call his bluff because you have beef with him which is pretty damn weak.

[Phil_the_Author]

Ian and Paul, this is worthless. I only began responding again because RAN himself suggested that I do so. It wasn't worth the effort. Unless I am apologized to properly and he answers that last question I will not respond again...

[Tom MacWood]

Ian
Send me your email address I'll forward the article to you, and you can post it.

[Ian Larson]

redanman@hotmail.com

In the meantime can you give us your perspective of the article?

[DMoriarty]

Ian Larson,

You misrepresent what I wrote.  I asked Phil to explain the basis for his conclusions.    I also told him that if he promised Shawnee that he would not publicly discuss their history, then he ought not say anything about it here or anywhere else.  

Everything you read into my statements is all your fantasy.
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 Just think how productive these discussions could be if you guys actually focused on substance instead of this babble about who intended what and who needs to apologize for what.

[DMoriarty]

Another photo of Shawnee from around 1916

[Ian Larson]

Dmoriarty I don't fantasize about your statements nor did I misrepresent you or what you said. I didn't quote you, and how I stated what you were saying to Phil which is, and I'm not quoting 1) explain why he has the conclusion he has about Tilly at Shawnee. 2) If he doesn't explain he shouldn't be commenting on the subject at all. That is not a fantasy and it's not misrepresenting what your point is. You can stop your circle talking now because I'm not falling into it. Do something more beneficial to the thread and actually produce something that makes you think this is worth looking into with Tilly at Shawnee.

[DMoriarty]

Ian Larson is telling me to contribute something to this thread?  That's rich, given his contributions. 

[Ian Larson]

Well it's you and Macwood that feel there is a need to look into whether Tilly was the solo designer at Shawnee. I don't. So if you two feel that way then please start creating your case as to why which you refuse to do to this point. I don't need to bring any more contributions to the table saying he was solo, there is already enough of that. We are now on the third page and you guys STILL can't come up with anything to show otherwise. Anytime you guys are ready there are many others anxious to see it. I still haven't even gotten an email from Macwood with the Country Club Life that for some reason he can't post himself and would like me to?    He can't even give us his perspective on the article!?!? You guys aren't doing well with convincing anybody that this is worth investigating. I'm ready to be convinced!

[Dan Herrmann]

Are they pulling the same thing they did with Tilly's work at Bethpage Black  a few years ago?    If I recall correctly (and I apologize if I'm wrong), Tom once had an Opinion article looking at the Joseph Burbeck family claims that he  was the actual designer of Bethpage Black.  Actually, in this case, Tom disputed the claim.

(PS - It can be seen at http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20021021135107/http://www.golfclubatlas.com/opiniontmacwood415.html    It's not up on the active site anymore.

[TEPaul]

Dan:

It pretty much looks like another Merion type thread to me; just under another name---eg Shawnee! 

[Tom MacWood]

Are they pulling the same thing they did with Tilly's work at Bethpage Black  a few years ago?    If I recall correctly (and I apologize if I'm wrong), Tom once had an Opinion article looking at the Joseph Burbeck family claims that he  was the actual designer of Bethpage Black.  Actually, in this case, Tom disputed the claim.

(PS - It can be seen at http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20021021135107/http://www.golfclubatlas.com/opiniontmacwood415.html    It's not up on the active site anymore.

Dan
Thanks for posting the essay. Who is 'they'? It would probably be a good idea to read the essay before jumping to conclusions.