Who designed Shawnee?

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

By your definition of "Dean of" which I think is correct, and based on being the first american born gca, only Emmet would seem to be in contention, and Whitten lists Garden City as 1899 as opposed to Frankford's 1898 according to Phil.

If we add in my conjecture that Tillie would put accepting paid fees as a gca, and Whitten's statement that Emmet didn't accept fees until later in his career, then Tillie could stake that claim on either basis, no?

Did Emmet or other americans design courses that we know of before that?  And, not that it matters, but if Tillie wasn't the first American to accept a fee to design a course, who would you say it was?  You mention O'Neill as designing "around that time" but Whitten lists his courses as way later, but allows that he dabbled earlier.  And, by your strict "dean of" definition, O'Neill (or others) would have to be proven to have designed a course in 1897 or earlier, no?

Of course, you might argue, and I might agree that Tillie was narrowing the definition quite a bit to suit his desire to make the claim (whether for business promotion or personal ego, its quite a distinction)  American Born, takes a fee (or perhaps is just invited by outsiders in his first work) continues to take fees on regular basis, etc.  I think there is probably enough truth to it to allow him to make that claim, no?

[Tom MacWood]

Jeff
Nine out of ten times in this context (non-academic) Dean of...means the longest serving or longest active, as in Dean of Big 10 coaches, Dean of PAC 10 coaches, Dean of Missouri Valley coaches, Dean of Diplomatic Corp, Dean of Cardinals, Dean of capital hill journalists, etc. I don't think there is any doubt what Tilly was claiming, and it was based on the crude layout in 1898. That course was metioned as the justification in the 1928 article.

O'Neil was more active than what is indicated in C&W. Macdonald claimed he was born in the United States. Emmet was both born in America and very active. They all designed legitimate golf courses prior to Shawnee and continued to practice into the 1920s.

I find it hard to believe anyone would question CBM's credentials as a pioneer because he used templates, especially when the person doing the questioning is claiming he was the longest active architect based on a very crude temporary golf course. I think it is more likely people would question that course as an example of legitimate golf architecture.

[Tom MacWood]

"You wrote in your biography the two men (Worthington and Tilly) discussed building a golf course as early as 1907. What is the source for that?"

I've answered that several times already. Tilly stated it and so did others. What is your problem with the date that DISCUSSIONS about a possible golf course began? Again, what was happening in 1907 with Worthington and Tilly that also prove this to be true?

I didn't ask who was the source I asked what is the source. Did you find it an article...if so what article?

Have you been able to confim the existance of the course at Frankfort?

[Mike Cirba]

I think Tilly was using the term to designate himself as the first american-born professional architect...surely he knew he didn't design the first courses in this country nor claiming so.

[TEPaul]

If a 1928 article called A.W. Tillinghast the dean of American architects I'd say that was probably a pretty accurate statement in 1928.

However, that was 1928 and that was just some article. This is 2010 and this is GOLFCLUBATLAS.com and therefore we should have at least twenty more pages first to decide what the exact definitions of "dean," "American," and "architect" are!

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
If you look back a few posts you will see the first mention of him being the Dean is 1922. By the way Emmet and O'Neil were still active in 1928, and both designed golf courses prior to Shawnee. I'm not sure when was CBM's last design, but he did publish a book in 1928 relating to golf architecture. Emmet and O'Neil were also professional golf architects.

[Jim_Kennedy]

George Taylor called Tillinghast "Dean" in a 1927 article. In the same year an article by "The Professor" laid it on Emmet, and in 1934 Innis Brown resurrected it and gave it to Ross. By 1971 it landed on the shoulders of RTJ sr.

No one seems to have been given the title between '34 and '71.  
Nowadays it would seem that Geoffrey Cornish could rightfully lay claim to it.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Uh-huh. Whatever.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

If we are talking about Tillie or his supporters using the term in 1928, it would appear they are combining long service (not necessarily the longest as per strict definition) and success.  While O'Neill and Emmet may have still be active, at that time, their resumes' didn't match Tillies in quality and quantity.  We have no way of knowing just how strictly Tillie or others would apply a dictionary definition.

As an example, there may be some Ohio junior college coach that served longer than Woody Hayes, but Hayes would still be more likely to be considered the dean of Ohio college football coaches based on his accomplishments, no?  Its a star system, then and now, and Tillie's star had continued to rise.

I tend to agree with Phil on this one....while its a legit point of discussion, its probably a mountain out of a molehill to disagree with the basic premise.  It was a nice marketing slogan, nothing more, and certainly never intended to be completely historically accurate, so we shouldn't necessarily judge it by those standards, even if we note it isn't exactly true.

[Tom MacWood]

If we are talking about Tillie or his supporters using the term in 1928, it would appear they are combining long service (not necessarily the longest as per strict definition) and success.  While O'Neill and Emmet may have still be active, at that time, their resumes' didn't match Tillies in quality and quantity.  We have no way of knowing just how strictly Tillie or others would apply a dictionary definition.

I've not made a mountain out of anything. If anyone is to blame it is Phil for not answering a very simple question. I find the topic interesting if you don't no one is forcing you to post.

What gives you the idea they are combining service and success (is there a precident for that)...and him being called the Dean dates to at least 1922.

[Phil_the_Author]

Hey guys, especially Tom Macwood, NONE of you are getting what I said. You all have ascribed to TILLY that HE gave himself the title. Again, I ask, WHO GAVE HIM that title? Where is it from and WHY?

Tom Macwood, you are doing that which you always do, applying a type of reasoning and therefore stating your CONCLUSION as FACT when there is simply no basis for doing so. You are wrong. Simply because "nine out of ten times," and I personally don't agree with your statistical analysis there, a word is used in a certain fashion, that has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with how it is used on this occasion.

What you are also doing is again what you ALWAYS do when you can't answer a question posed to you... you deflect to something else and avoid answering. Go back to my previous post and answer the questions or simply say that YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWERS. There is nothing wrong with that. Instead you ask me "Have you been able to confim the existance of the course at Frankfort?"

WHY do I need to CONFIRM that? The implication behind the question is that we cannot trust Tilly's own words. Are you now saying or implying that he LIED about it? That is an absolutely absurd question and is simply asked to further obfuscate and deflect away from the entire subject of this thread.

"I didn't ask who was the source I asked what is the source. Did you find it an article...if so what article?"

Guess what Tom, I ANSWERED the WHAT and also the several WHO's. It is you who can't seem to read too well here. I have stated that Tilly wrote it and several others have written of it as well. I also told you that you can look it up yourself because it is very easy to find.

Guys, really, don't buy into the crap he is spewing as he is simply trying to make something out of nothing.

[TEPaul]

"I'm not sure when was CBM's last design, but he did publish a book in 1928 relating to golf architecture."


According to Macdonald his last involvement in a start up project was Yale before 1928. Obviously he continued to fiddle around with the architecture of NGLA until the mid to late 1930s when he ran into some problems with the administration of that club. He may've fiddled with the architecture of The Links after 1928. In October 1926 after what appears to have been a particularly contentious board meeting he resigned suddenly from The Creek Club at which time he held the position of the president of the Kellenworth Corporation that owned the club (by the way, right around the same time (1926) he did make a few minor architectural recommendations for The Creek's architecture which have been recently considered again). He gave as his reason for resigning that he wanted to go to his cottage in Bermuda and write his memoirs ("Scotland's Gift Golf") which, according to some of his friends, he had been threatening to write for about 5-6 years.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Phil,

Oh I get it, but allow that Tillie wouldn't do much to dissuade the monicker, nor should he have.  He earned his stripes.

TMac,

I find it interesting to discuss as well.  I am trying to answer your questions, with some research and some speculation/opinion.  I just feel there is a limit to what we can conclude, as with many topics here.  

Jim Kennedy's post showing us how it was used by many writers to describe many gca's in a similar time frame puts some of the use of the phrase in context.  I believe the phrase has a general connotation to it, including long service, quality, accomplishment, etc., regardless of what Webster says.  Whether 1922 or 1928, those comments by others are nearly 20 years after Tillie's first design.  In a general sense, when they called Tillie and others the dean, it was saying they had been around a while.

Maybe someday Rees will be the dean of US Open remodels, Doak the dean of minimalists, etc.  I gather there could be more than one dean, given its a general title of admiration for a body of work.

BTW, what American born gca designed a course earlier than 1898?

[TEPaul]

"BTW, what American born gca designed a course earlier than 1898?"


Mr. Jeffrey:

American born Herbert Leeds did the so-called "Long Nine" at Myopia in 1896 on which they held the 1898 US Open (that was actually significant as it was the first US Open that was held at a separate site from the US Amateur). It is very hard to document but Leeds may've even done something in Maine earlier than 1896. However, Leeds was definitely not a professional architect even though there is no doubt he was respected in American golf for what he did do---eg Myopia. In 1898 Leeds expanded Myopia to eighteen holes and it held three more US Opens by 1908.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jeff,

I completely agree with you that Tilly had no problem in using the moniker which is why I wrote that in my Tilly bio. The point here is that Tilly didn't give it to himself. Also, that it had nothing to do with his being the oldest or loongest in business architect but rather that he was the BEST one. That is how the word "Dean" is meant in the context of the original 1922 Hymer illustration.

Tilly himself only considered his architectural career to have begun with Shawnee. The Frankford "rudimentary course" was first mentioned in a 1908 article that he wrote. I am really the only person in modern times who has commented on it and ascribed any realistic meaning to it in terms of his long-time interest in architecture.

The irony in this discussion is that Tom seems to forget how he once told me I was wrong in citing that very bit of work after his return froma St. Andrews trip where he spent a great deal of time with Old Tom Morris as an example of Old Tom's influence on him and his interest in architecture.

Tom Macwood also keeps missing the point that Tilly was "INVITED" to lay out this short rudimentary course and so my question which he keeps ignoring, WHO "invited" him to do so and for what purpose. The story behind that is quite important and would surprise many when they learn they answer. (It will be found in Tilly Volume II).

I have too much to do right now and have no more time to waste on this...

[Tom MacWood]

"I didn't ask who was the source I asked what is the source. Did you find it an article...if so what article?"

Guess what Tom, I ANSWERED the WHAT and also the several WHO's. It is you who can't seem to read too well here. I have stated that Tilly wrote it and several others have written of it as well. I also told you that you can look it up yourself because it is very easy to find.

Guys, really, don't buy into the crap he is spewing as he is simply trying to make something out of nothing.

Several? I'll take one article (date and publication) where anyone states the two men discussed it in 1907.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I'm glad you will. As I have already stated several times, I won't provide you with anything. Go look it up yourself.

[Tom MacWood]

If you won't give the information again for whatever reason, give us the number of the reply. I first asked the question in post #258.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You have slandered and insulted me and you yet ask for cooperation. You are a fool and I am done waasting my time with you. You had numerous opportunities to learn, gain informations, resources and even share, yet you deliberately chose the opposite. Now reap what you've sown for I am done with you.

[Tom MacWood]

BTW, what American born gca designed a course earlier than 1898?

CB Macdonald, Lawrence Van Etten, Arthur Fenn, CC Worthingon, Ed Tufts, George Wright, Leonard Tufts, D. Leroy Culver, CE Orr, PE Bowles, FD Fairbanks, E. Conde Smith, FQ Brown, SE Blunt, and WS Pierce are few American born designers in 1898 or earlier. According to the Harpers Golf Guide there were 872 golf courses in America in 1899 my guess would at least fifty were laid out by Americans, probably more.

And let us not forget Squire Merrill and his rag tag gang...I can't believe TEP through them under the bus. 

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

You have slandered and insulted me and you yet ask for cooperation. You are a fool and I am done waasting my time with you. You had numerous opportunities to learn, gain informations, resources and even share, yet you deliberately chose the opposite. Now reap what you've sown for I am done with you.

Phil
I've gone through this thread and all the articles you've posted (and didn't post) and I can't find the 1907 discussion anywhere.

It is pretty clear why you cooperate on occasion and why you don't cooperate at other times. In this case there is no shame in admitting that the 1907 discussion was conjecture on your part. I don't have a problem with that at all...historians make educated guesses all time, but they also explain that it is conjecture, that is where you failed.

Have you been able to confirm the existence of the golf course at Frankfort?

[TEPaul]

"In this case there is no shame in admitting that the 1907 discussion was conjecture on your part. I don't have a problem with that at all...historians make educated guesses all time, but they also explain that it is conjecture, that is where you failed."


Tom MacWood:

In your world and in your mind is conjecture synonymous with speculation?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You show yourself to once again be a fool and far less a researcher than you claim.  You insult me once again and do so while proving what I just said about you:

Tom: "I've gone through this thread and all the articles you've posted (and didn't post) and I can't find the 1907 discussion anywhere."

Tom: "If you won't give the information again for whatever reason, give us the number of the reply. I first asked the question in post #258."

Post #258? You obviously did a pretty poor job of going"through this thread" because in  POST #259 I wrote:

"I've read your biography, and your speculation in that book. You said Worthington and Tilly discussed building a course there as early as 1907. What is that based on?"

For one who has claimed to have "read a great deal on this subject" you sure seem to miss a lot! Here is another one you can go look up because it is from several sources including Tilly himself! By the way, how about a hint that will show you the answer? Where was Tilly own a summer residence in 1907 and who would purchase it from him in 1908?

THAT is the answer I gave you then and also where I wrote, "You have slandered and insulted me and you yet ask for cooperation. You are a fool and I am done wasting my time with you. You had numerous opportunities to learn, gain informations, resources and even share, yet you deliberately chose the opposite. Now reap what you've sown for I am done with you."

So once again you insult me by claiming that there was a "discussion" of it when you know there never was. Is thuis ANOTHER EXAMPLE of you simply MAKING THINGS UP as you ADMITTED TO in the Harry Colt thread? Yet you have the AUDACITY to state, "It is pretty clear why you cooperate on occasion and why you don't cooperate at other times. In this case there is no shame in admitting that the 1907 discussion was conjecture on your part..."

No Tom, I simply refuse to provide YOU with anything. I share my information freely with many, many on here and both publicly and privately and do so gladly. Go ahead and ask on here; others will tell you that is so. You are the first person I have ever decided that I will not give another thing to.

That despite your voluminous searches on the early history of the creation of Shawnee you can find no mention of Tilly and Worthington in 1907 you also prove how poor a job of looking you have done... If you want to think it is "conjecture" rather than a well-earned piece of researcher's justice for the way you have treated me you prove once again the fool you have been to be true...

[Tom MacWood]

Where was Tilly own a summer residence in 1907 and who would purchase it from him in 1908?

Phil
That is very interesting...was that the source of your conjecture?

As far as the Colt thread is concerned are you familiar with sarcasm? I'd recommend you look at the post that proceeded that one. You may also want to check David Moriarty's later post that confirmed the date I gave. Obviously I didn't make it up.

Have you been able to confirm the existence of the Frankfort course?

[TEPaul]

Philip:

Perhaps I only ask for my own edification but how many times are you going to say you are done with wasting time on Tom MacWood on here and then just continue to waste time on him on here?