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Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Lost Farm Review
« on: September 15, 2010, 09:49:49 PM »
Link to Geoff's site where you can get to Darius Oliver's review in the Australian

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2010/9/15/expectations-were-high-for-lost-farm-and-coore-has-delivered.html

Teaser:
Coore began work on Lost Farm in Easter 2006. He spent weeks studying every nuance of the property, searching for ways of tying all the golf together. Coore, a hands-on architect, spent much longer on site than Doak did for the original course, partly because the routing of Lost Farm, across higher dunes, is more complicated. The valleys between the dunes are also broader and the site available for golf was larger and stretched farther inland.

These factors gave Coore the opportunity to do something Doak would have loved to do on his course: arrange the golf so the holes run to all points of the compass, rather than predominantly east and west. On the downside, he had to figure a way of setting golf among such enormous sandhills without making it unplayable.

When is that Down Under Trip?
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2010, 10:42:19 PM »
This was at the bottom.
"Darius Oliver is a golf course design consultant."

Where has Darius consulted?  was my first question.
Then I found this which I liked a lot:

http://planetgolfusa.com/blog/2010/08/03/the-launch-of-darius-oliver-golf-course-design/

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2010, 11:45:01 PM »
This Oliver guy makes me laugh.  I agree with what he says.  But the concept of which he writes is nothing new.  If changing the culture of "signature design" were as easy as writing about it, Geoff Shackelford, Ran Morrissett and others would be much more widely known as renaissance thinkers than they are.

And frankly, the more I think about the subject on which he postulates, it makes less sense that we'd want to do away with the signature style of branding.  If every course were built the way Coore, Nuzzo, Doak, and others build theirs, it would dilute the creativity and specialness of the truly great.  

As an aside, how do I become a "Golf Course Design Consultant"?  Does that mean I can travel around to great courses, new and old, and play devil's advocate?  With playing privileges in my contract of course.  
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 11:47:41 PM by Ben Sims »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2010, 11:39:14 AM »
Is this Darius Oliver design thing a joke or something?  His prose is scathing...
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2010, 01:06:50 PM »
Darius Oliver is trying to get paid as a "golf architecture consultant" by recommending architects to developers.  It's a tricky business, because there will always be more money in recommending guys who will pay you a fee to recommend them.  Plus, a developer who needs Darius' help in selecting an architect may not turn out to be the best client.

The article about his own signature design firm was a parody, though they say that any parody usually contains a least a few grains of aspiration, too.  I suspect that Darius would like to design a golf course himself someday, much as Geoff Shackelford does.  But, heck, so does nearly everyone on this web site.


Teaser:
Coore began work on Lost Farm in Easter 2006. He spent weeks studying every nuance of the property, searching for ways of tying all the golf together. Coore, a hands-on architect, spent much longer on site than Doak did for the original course, partly because the routing of Lost Farm, across higher dunes, is more complicated. The valleys between the dunes are also broader and the site available for golf was larger and stretched farther inland.

These factors gave Coore the opportunity to do something Doak would have loved to do on his course: arrange the golf so the holes run to all points of the compass, rather than predominantly east and west. On the downside, he had to figure a way of setting golf among such enormous sandhills without making it unplayable.


I don't know that the routing of Lost Farm was more complicated than Barnbougle Dunes.  We looked at a lot of different possibilities for Barnbougle, even though the site for the front nine was quite narrow and restricted ... it seemed barely wide enough to get out and back, yet we squeezed a lot into it.  Plus, Bill didn't have to deal with Greg Ramsay trying to route holes for him!

I will take the comments about Bill spending so much more time on site than me, with a grain of salt.  If I hadn't been willing to build the first course without much payment, Bill would not have been paid to spend so much time on the sequel.  I am positive that Lost Farm is an excellent course -- Darius has it rated equal with Barnbougle on a hole-by-hole comparison on his web site -- and I certainly look forward to playing them both someday soon and comparing. 

One could also use the time sheets to conclude that I get a lot more out of a day's work than Bill does, or else that my crew adds more value than his.  ;)  In truth, we are just a bit more different than most people realize.  But the only thing that matters is whether the golf courses we are building get as much out of the land as they could, and we both seem to be doing okay in that regard.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2010, 09:09:28 AM »
Excellent thread!

Tom, It is always interesting to get the assessment from those that have done the job. What sort of play, numbers wise, has the Barnbougle Dunes course been getting on an annual basis? What type of playing numbers, ballpark, does the ownership expect or need now that there are two courses there?

It seems quite remote, and while the Yanks have proven to support their destination outposts,  are enough locals there willing to pay the price, to carry the day, without significant international play in the volume needed to become profitable? I don't mean to pepper you with questions, but your take would be appreciated, as you've been involved in a fair few of these projects. Thanks in advance!

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2010, 11:00:01 AM »
Kris:

I haven't seen any of the numbers on Barnbougle from this year, but last year, the original course did a bit over 20,000 rounds and ran a healthy profit.  The owners still have not received any dividends but those should start flowing now.

The second course is under different ownership than the first [it's a separate company and some of the original investors are not involved], and that has been the source of some contention.  In Bandon, play more than doubled once the second course came online, as more people were convinced to make the trip.  That is not such a sure thing in Australia, where the total market is much smaller, so it's possible that the second course could reduce play on the first.  And make no mistake, Barnbougle has thrived to date because of regular visitors from Melbourne and Sydney, not because of overseas visitors who are a small percentage of the total.

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2010, 05:07:15 PM »
Hey Tom, I'd be careful there big guy. At the rate your courses are closing, you may have as many designs as I do.

Mark_F

Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2010, 05:10:07 PM »
Barnbougle has thrived to date because of regular visitors from Melbourne and Sydney, not because of overseas visitors who are a small percentage of the total.

It will be very interesting to see how Barnbougle performs with the second course.  One must not forget that the first few years' figures are artificially inflated because of Matthew Mollica's repeat business, and that can't go on forever.

You would assume that the second course will make it likely that (more) golfers in Western Australia and Queensland will be able to justify the trip now, as it is a little too far and expensive for the one course.

The focus on more upmarket accommodation at Lost Farm is interesting.  I haven't met a woman yet who thinks the Northern Tasmanian coast is the place to go for a day spa for a couple of days whilst their better half indulges his golfing whims.

I have read somewhere recently that Richard Sattler seems to think rounds played may triple.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2010, 05:25:59 PM »
The focus on more upmarket accommodation at Lost Farm is interesting.  I haven't met a woman yet who thinks the Northern Tasmanian coast is the place to go for a day spa for a couple of days whilst their better half indulges his golfing whims.

Not so fast, just marry a girl who loves wine. :D My wife loved the wine tour on Sat as much as she loved her trip through the Dunes!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mark_F

Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2010, 05:50:31 PM »
Just as an FYI.

Melbourne to Launceston can be had for $69 next week, for a 65 minute flight.

Brisbane to Launceston is $200 for a 4 and a half hour flight.
Perth to Launceston is at least $340, for an 8 hour flight with changeovers.
Adelaide is $219, for a 6 and a half hour trip with changeovers.

Those in Melbourne and Sydney can, during daylight saving ( Approx mid October to mid April) fly to Barnbougle and do 36 holes and be back that evening.

The same can't be said for those in other states.  Barnbougle is at least an overnighter for them.

Hopefully Pete Lavallee's wife has a lot of sisters. :D
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 09:00:14 PM by Mark Ferguson »

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2010, 05:58:37 PM »
Hopefully Pete Lavalle'es wife has a lot of sisters. :D
Just one, but she loves wine and lives in the second best golfing country in the Southern Hemishere!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2010, 06:43:59 PM »
Mark F:

Of all the factors involved in the success of Barnbougle, the ridiculously low airfares from the mainland to Tassie are a key.  In America that same flight [it's the same distance as Detroit or Chicago to Traverse City, which you could drive] would cost 3x as much.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2010, 06:45:08 PM »
Hey Tom, I'd be careful there big guy. At the rate your courses are closing, you may have as many designs as I do.

Geoff:

As far as I know, I'm still pitching a shutout.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2010, 06:55:14 PM »
I suspect that Darius would like to design a golf course himself someday, much as Geoff Shackelford does.  But, heck, so does nearly everyone on this web site.

Not me...I have no delusions that I have the ability to design a golf course.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2010, 06:59:22 PM »
Mark F:

Of all the factors involved in the success of Barnbougle, the ridiculously low airfares from the mainland to Tassie are a key.  In America that same flight [it's the same distance as Detroit or Chicago to Traverse City, which you could drive] would cost 3x as much.

Why does a ticket from Chicago to Traverse City cost as much as a ticket to New York anyway?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2010, 07:00:50 PM »
Congrats, Mac, you're the one and only... :)

Kinda sad interactions on this thread, oh well.

I've had a damn lucky life thus far, but it won't be complete till I make it down to Barnbougle. Hopefully I'll share a round with Mark F at SAB as well.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2010, 07:25:42 PM »
Congrats, Mac, you're the one and only... :)

Kinda sad interactions on this thread, oh well.

I've had a damn lucky life thus far, but it won't be complete till I make it down to Barnbougle. Hopefully I'll share a round with Mark F at SAB as well.

Make it two.  I have no desire to design a golf course nor do I think I would have the first clue how to do it.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2010, 08:15:01 PM »
Gentlemen,

Around the golfing traps I have the distinct impression that the Barnbougle-Lost Farm duet is getting much more attention than most other "resort" complexes in Australia. Many of the golfers I speak to have heard of it and are keen to visit. The apparently wide, open spaces with wind a'blowin' seems to strike a chord with them and I believe that these two courses will become a Mecca with many Australian pilgrims.

As a Queenslander it may seem a bit far but the fares can be very reasonable and as was suggested a day-trip from Sydney or Melbourne is entirely feasible.  Tasmania, the Apple Isle, is not large and a hire car will get you and your better half to many places of beauty and interest where the delicious food and fine wine can be enjoyed at leisure. A visit here in no way needs to exclude the distaff side!  No I don't work for the Tasmanian tourist Board!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2010, 08:15:44 PM »
.
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2010, 08:26:18 PM »
It seems quite remote, and while the Yanks have proven to support their destination outposts,  are enough locals there willing to pay the price, to carry the day, without significant international play in the volume needed to become profitable?

Daily green fees are about $110
Accomm is about $50 per person per night.
Airfares are cheap ($100 return from Melbourne, city of 4 million.)
So it is possible to have a golf weekend down there for $600-$700 or so. 
very accessible to the 'local' market. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mark_F

Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2010, 09:13:57 PM »
Mark F:
Of all the factors involved in the success of Barnbougle, the ridiculously low airfares from the mainland to Tassie are a key.  In America that same flight [it's the same distance as Detroit or Chicago to Traverse City, which you could drive] would cost 3x as much.

Tom,

That's obviously very true.  If the flight from Melbourne or Sydney to Launceston was double, it would have done a lot less hit and run rounds in a day.  It would be interesting to know even with two courses whether many golfers from Perth or North Queensland make the journey, as the airfares are still relatively expensive, and the time involved is much more.

I've had a damn lucky life thus far, but it won't be complete till I make it down to Barnbougle. Hopefully I'll share a round with Mark F at SAB as well.

George,

I am sure even if we had a round at the worst Pittsburgh muni as opposed to one of Tom Doak's finest creations, it would be something to remember fondly for many years.  :)


Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2010, 09:23:45 PM »
Hey Tom, I'd be careful there big guy. At the rate your courses are closing, you may have as many designs as I do.

Geoff:

As far as I know, I'm still pitching a shutout.

Really? So if I lease a private jet, would you join me at Beechtree and High Pointe? The website for Beechtree says its closed and the website for High Pointe is now a gambling blog.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 11:04:39 PM by Geoff_Shackelford »

Wade Schueneman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2010, 09:36:57 PM »
I am with Mac.  I have no desire to design a course, as I surely do not have the talent.  It is easy to look at the finished product and be a critic, but looking at a 200 acres of raw land, envisioning a routing, and then creating it in the dirt sounds just plain HARD to me.  I would rather be the owner.  Then I could hire the talent and meddle extensively in the design process ;D  Also, if I am the owner I think that would make me rich, which sounds nice too!

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lost Farm Review
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2010, 02:39:50 AM »
Geoff,

Why the acrimony? In the grand view...I believe Tom is BANG ON! Where is your solo design? I admire your writing, and am well aware of your noble, collaborative efforts with Gil. Get real there big guy...where is the body of work? Case closed!!!!!  ??? :-X :P


Cheers,
Kris
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak