[Ian Andrew]

I have heard they may be waiving for some the requirement of attending the annual meeting

Not to my knowledge.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ian and Kelly,

I was at an ASGCA event earlier this week and I can confirm that there is NO change of the by laws that reduces the annual meeting attendence requirement of ASGCA in the works.

[Ian Andrew]

Next Year's ASGCA meeting?

The Tartan Jacket traded for a orange hats.....

[Ian Andrew]

You might want to take measure of your swat at ASGCA

Kelly,

I have no clue what that means.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ian,

My bet is on a tartan for burlap jacket exchange......

[Jeffrey Stein]

Randy,

I don't plan to stop asking questions any time soon, in the world of GCA I'm only beginning to learn enough to know which questions to ask.  I can remember a time not long ago when I didn't know the difference between those who design and those who build.  I just assumed you were supposed to do both.  As Ian posted earlier it seems more designers may be doing more of their own builds.  I am glad to be creating a foundation on the build side as so many design decisions get made in the field anyway. 

On my current project I have developed a greater understanding of moving material in respect to volume and time.  Mainly because I am hauling a lot of that material.  I didn't get a chance to re-shape any of the greens but I know that I could do it with great skill and imagination if called upon.  It is a small renovation and an ideal project to learn on but grasping the big picture is going to take lots of time and experience.

I'm not quite 25 yet, but if I can take one step closer to putting my hands on the plans that will be a small success. 

I'd also like to address success in general, as Scott discussed earlier.  For me it is a balance between work and the rest of my life.  I graduated from college in 2008 with a degree in economics and a small understanding of supply and demand.  However as Gary D. also says, I'm just looking for something that will bring joy to my life.  I'm just stubborn I guess...  Building golf courses all over the world is the perfect excuse to leave home and travel.  I'll go where the work is and I wouldn't mind if that puts me on a beach in Bandon, New Zealand, or Brazil...

[Niall C]

Low overheads are the key to keeping any business alive in this gloom, sadly I think worse is to come, so be prepared for doing something else if your aGCA. Not too many golf courses have actually closed yet but no normal person is thinking of building a golf course right now and when it kicks off again, there will be plenty of pieces to pick up from the ones not done from 2006-2010, excluding Asia and I dont know enough about USA, I think there is not much point in being a golf course architect until about 2020, this mess is set for 10 years before  resorts will restart, property could be effectively static and like it or not those are key indicators. Horrible to say it but anyone thinking of starting a carreer in golf course architecture at the moment is crazy, but if you do, go East.

Adrian

I have to ask, what else do you suggest aspiring young GCA's do until business picks up ? I ask that because like many in my business I was laid off when the economy fell over the edge of the cliff and unfortunately didn't earn any money for the best part of a year. I'm now working for less than two thirds of what I was on previously, and what I was on previously was by no means over the top for the experience I have and the job I was doing. Its tough out there no matter what business you're in and I suggest unless you hate your job, or are completely crap at it, that its best to stick in the business you know and position yourself for the upturn whenever that happens (hopefully quicker than you think).

Niall

[Mark_Fine]

Ian,
You know about some of my projects from discussions with Scott.  Fortunately I am busy with five or six active restoration/renovation projects (we don't do new construction which is the big difference).  Like any business I have ever been in, there are cycles up and down.  New construction is obviously in a very big down cycle but existing courses are still aging and changing and clubs that are surviving still need to compete to stay afloat.  They might push off some planning and course upgrades but eventually they have to do it.  As one example, Forrest and I have a big restoration/renovation project in CA that was just approved for construction (we had the plan done in 2007 and it finally got to the point where the work had to be done).  This is the niche I am in and thankfully I find it is still reasonably healthy (relatively speaking).  You have to find a niche, and smaller more nimble firms as stated in this thread, will likely be the theme to ride out this next cycle.  

The other point to make (probably already stated) is that many architects have taken on other kinds of part-time work to balance out the lulls. Not everyone has that luxury and it is not always easy, but it helps if you can do it.  

Let's just hope the world economy overall holds steady for the time being and maybe even ticks up a bit.  It is very fragile right now as we have years of pennence to pay as the world has been living/spending well beyond their means - global over-leveraging.

[Jim Nugent]

I think worse is to come

I don’t.

Afraid I agree with Adrian.  None of the problems that caused the downturn have been solved.  Getting worse, IMO. 

How do you have jobless recovery?  An oxymoron. 

[Randy Thompson]

Randy,

I don't plan to stop asking questions any time soon,

.  I'll go where the work is and I wouldn't mind if that puts me on a beach in Bandon, New Zealand, or Brazil...

Jeffery,
Nor should you, you have a great attitude and a clear picture of whats to come(sacrafice), the stubborn in you will always come in handy and if managed correctly side in your favor. Most importantly you have time, few in this world have put thier name on a design before they were 40 years old. In my opinion, going to a University short course in turfgrass management could also sturdy your foundation. Do you work with auto-cad or any other programs used in designs? I am sure in your economical studies you saw where big upward spikes are followed by downard spikes and that seems to be what we are currently experiencing, things could level out or in the future start to rise. How many will be left in 15 years, your guess is good as mine. But it could be the supply and demand scale tips the other way.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Low overheads are the key to keeping any business alive in this gloom, sadly I think worse is to come, so be prepared for doing something else if your aGCA. Not too many golf courses have actually closed yet but no normal person is thinking of building a golf course right now and when it kicks off again, there will be plenty of pieces to pick up from the ones not done from 2006-2010, excluding Asia and I dont know enough about USA, I think there is not much point in being a golf course architect until about 2020, this mess is set for 10 years before  resorts will restart, property could be effectively static and like it or not those are key indicators. Horrible to say it but anyone thinking of starting a carreer in golf course architecture at the moment is crazy, but if you do, go East.

Adrian

I have to ask, what else do you suggest aspiring young GCA's do until business picks up ? I ask that because like many in my business I was laid off when the economy fell over the edge of the cliff and unfortunately didn't earn any money for the best part of a year. I'm now working for less than two thirds of what I was on previously, and what I was on previously was by no means over the top for the experience I have and the job I was doing. Its tough out there no matter what business you're in and I suggest unless you hate your job, or are completely crap at it, that its best to stick in the business you know and position yourself for the upturn whenever that happens (hopefully quicker than you think).

Niall

Niall I am not sure I have a 'nice' answer. I think the worlds most dangerous people are optimists as they can lead the ships back into the icebergs with blind faith. The position we are in is that the world economy is dire and people have less money and perhaps have to work a lot more as companies look for better value out of their workers, so many people (not all) have less time.....those are very bad ingredients for growth in new golf courses and the direct assendant from that is there wont be many new golf courses built and that corresponds with far less work for golf course architects, so its not a great industry to enter when the existing architects are already scrapping for the crumbs.
I have just returned from Bulgaria where I looked at a project that we are now going to shelf. 10 years is the estimate, but the ranges of when will it get better were 8 years to 20 years from the opinions. Three current golf courses on the Black sea coast had a total of 4 golfers on and this is prime time, at weekends sometimes 40 people play. It was desperate to see the recent developments in such a dire position, and you almost wonder if best policy is to just stop mowing. There is an overhang of golf courses at the moment in many western places, if financial aspects worsen the division of golfers into golf courses will make things even tougher, things will get better if a course closes, that traffic can come to yours..... thats almost what needs to happen... I have said this before but the better golf courses (more expensive ones) are more likely to be casualtys as the world clambers for value.....horrible to say we need less golf courses not more, so more bad news for a golf course architect.

Its hard to suggest what a wannabe golf architect could/should do but I guess getting involved in the maintenance side all helps the learning curve and is not to distant from golf course design.... other than that I guess its grilling hamburgers.

[Mike_Young]

Adrian is more correct on this matter than most I have read....IMHO

The Idealist presents Golf course design as though it is a profession but in reality...how many people have ever really made a living in it..and I mean design only...not construction....not many.....and many that will say they have are BSing themselves and us...why...because usually their wife is working or they have other income...or they also build their courses....(note: JB, yes there have been a few)  The ODG's were often doing something else also.  Many of the people you will see listed as GCA's today have their name on ZERO scorecards and have never signed the front of a paycheck.....it will not be a lifetime occupation for them in many cases...therefore I say the Big Design Firm is over...unless a few of the SIGNATURE MARKETING DESIGN FIRMS remain..but it is not fair to label that entire fee as golf design...most is marketing and with that being the case..and housing the way it is...will not be many of those either...

An interesting study would be to see what the actual TOTAL in the US is for golf design fees in  a year....not construction management ...and not signature marketing fees on top of design fees...but just drawing golf courses...take that and divide by the number of GCA's...there will be your answer...this all sounds harsh but it is a realist view...

 Fact is that out of all of the 16,900 courses in this country, most of them could care less about the architect and when it comes time to do a renovation or a remodel...well they will just call a local builder that has been coming to all the supt meetings for the last 10 years....
the truth is many of the supts at regular courses are not that enamored with GCAs...they have seen the pompous air of a few and if given a chance they will do the work themselves w a local builder and forget an architect....

Jeffrey, I try to be a realist here...and the fact is....there are zero rules...what matters is getting a course in the ground , open and making it profitable...every thing else is out the window for now...(of course there are a few that can work off of assessments and dues)  

The most disposable of all the fields that make up a golf course is the golf architect....I know people will go apeshit over that statement but I am speaking for the overall business not the 1000 courses that MAY be exceptions....one can find plenty of dirt guys out there that will bring an old dozier over to a course and build a few tees or get with the supt and build a few greens....Golf design is one of the few businesses where the client rarely has any idea of what he is being told...you can have smart business people in complete awe of the golf business....we are now at the point where many clients don't know the difference between the architect and the builder...if the client gets a builder on site that has worked for a signature designer..then you can have them completely forget the architect and start listening to him completely...( trust me..I have actually seen it where the club is promoting the builder and not the designer all because the builder built some big name courses around town)
Do what you want to do...there is stuff out there..but where it used to be that everyone was letting publicist talk all day about all their projects...not anymore...you just keep your mouth shut and find them...there might be someone that will allow you to do your thing...but look at the 16000 out there not the 1000....

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

Hey all,

Well, I had been working for a golf course design firm ever since graduating from university in 1997.  In a sense, I still consider myself to be a young wipper snapper, but one that has gained a decade of experience.  Anyway, over a year ago, when the recession hit and we were going to the office to play cards with nothing else to do (slight exgageration, at least about the playing cards...) I decided to move on, away from the golf design business, and to get into more general landscape architecture.  After a few months of finding my way, I've been working for over 6 months now as a project manager for a landscape architecture firm.

And I can honestly say that I find the work to be very challenging and rewarding.  And just as importantly, I am learning SO MUCH each day!  Managing the construction of a park for a city, simply from a PROCESS point of view, is truly a fascnating exercise.  I have discovered a whole world in "project management" (a very transferable skill, including for golf course architecture), having also taken a project management course at McGill University.

Trust me, if you can manage the construction a $3 million park for a city, you can manage the construction of a golf course.  I'm currently heading a team of  architects, structural engineers, contractors, electrical engineers, environmental experts, while dealing with city employees, politicians and the public. 

A greens comittee is a piece of cake in comparison! 

Anyway, my point is that "moving on" (if only temporarily) might be a fantastic career move.  I have no doubt that I'll be way better off in five years going through this learning process than if I had stayed in the business trying to survive.

[Randy Thompson]

Adrian,
You stated very well, ¨The position we are in is that the world economy is dire and people have less money and perhaps have to work a lot more as companies look for better value out of their workers, so many people (not all) have less time..¨
also you stated very well, Three current golf courses on the Black sea coast had a total of 4 golfers on and this is prime time, at weekends sometimes 40 people play. It was desperate to see the recent developments in such a dire position, and you almost wonder if best policy is to just stop mowing.
We have a similar situation in South America because we do not have the mass of golfers similar to the states and other regions. LaSerrena is ranked one of the two best designs in Chile and has almost ten years and 230 some odd members, and Costa Cauchaqua, a well alid out nine holes in excellent condition and 125 members. It is our responsibility to adapt to the times. Land cost, high maintenance budgets and Augusta like conditions all get past on to the end consummer and create a very difficult business plan in a saturated market. Finding four or five hours to play is also a negative in today`s society as you pointed out. Putting all these condsiderations into one package I am currently doing a design that addresses these issue and was fortunate enough to have a client that listened and believes in my phillosophies and we are starting construction on October first. The land allocated is about 75 acres and has great natural movement and we expect to move between 500 and 3,000m3 of dirt. The irrigation will be single row and we aim to maintain fast, firm and brown and just enough water to keep everything alive. Greens will be bent for now because they are gonna build a five star hotel, at one point in time when they were considering four star, we were considering fescue but now only the surrounding of greens will be fescue. We will use as little chemicals as possible and spray liquid fertilizers to avoid or diminish leachinng. The routing consisits of of three par three`s, that can also be played as par four`s and three par five`s and one of those can be played as a par four. That will allow nine hole routing of Par 35, 36, 37, 38 and 39! Each hole will have six to eight tee boxes changing angles, distances, elevations and playing strategies! Maybe I have lost my marbles but its time to act for such a loud mouth as myself! I may post the routing in the next week or so and let the critics fly!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kelly and Mike,

Good posts. I was telling that to my ASGCA brethern the other day - the value of design is going down for a lot of reasons.  Not that it was ever that high, as evidenced by the fact that we get maybe 10% of our fee for design and the rest for construction documents and oversight.  The owners have always paid for the ability to get er done.

With the rise of design-build (either in house, Doak method, or Landscapes Unlimited method of contractor in charge) I believe design is under even more pressure to be devalued.  Add in the irrigation design process, where the mfgs influence it more and more with equipment deals, redesigns to better fit their products, etc., and owners get the message that the golf designer isn't that important.  Not to mention Tour Pro syndrome, etc.  Someone has to do the math (borrowing from another post) but more and more, its someone else, like engineers, contractors, etc. 

We may have ourselves to blame, after years and years of offloading stuff to others to avoid liability - irrigation design, greens mix, etc.

[Ryan Farrow]

Guy's  when did you see design fees start to drop?

Is this before 20 or more firms were fighting for 1 job?

[Tom_Doak]

The only reason design fees are falling is the simple laws of supply and demand:  there are too many architects, and not enough projects.

As for Kelly's post, I agree to some extent, but there are at least a few guys on the dozers who are thinking about the bounce of the ball and the playability of the hole as much as he is.  Just because you have learned how to run a dozer doesn't mean you forget about the other stuff.

Jeff, the funny thing about your post is that I've felt in recent years that my design services were overvalued, and the construction services were undervalued.  To some extent, that was just a Catch-22 of knowing that once I was signed up for the design, I was more or less obligated to price our construction services to the same level as any contractor would, and the contractors were likely to low-bid the shaping portion and put their profits in other line items.  So, it has been easier just to charge a high design fee up front than to drive a hard bargain on the shaping later.  Perhaps in the near term, that will switch to the other way around, but not so far.

[BCrosby]

"Again, implied in the message is that design is all about what something looks like, the visual presentation, and that can be expressed easily by just duplicating what you have seen or built before. My question to him would be but how does it play, what considerations were given to the strategy, the possibilities and options, the pin positions, the angles from the fairway, the maintenance, all of that to me is design, it is part of the process one goes through in mind, on paper, in the field."  KBM

Exactly so.

TomD - I don' think Kelly is making a point about shapers. His real point is the frustration he feels with the underwriters and consumers of golf architecture who place an inordinate amount of weight on the 'look' of a course. He is right to be frustrated.

I am trying to implement a master plan at my course in Atlanta. Almost no one wants to hear about architectural improvements. Few care care; even fewer have a vocabulary to talk about the issues; fewer still want to pay for them. Member concerns are purely and simply about the look of a bunker or a green. That's what they want to see improved. I've not gotten a single question about how play on those same holes might be made more interesting.

All pretty sobering. KBM nails it.  Bob

[Tom_Doak]

TomD - I don' think Kelly is making a point about shapers. His real point is the frustration he feels with the underwriters and consumers of golf architecture who place an inordinate amount of weight on the 'look' of a course. He is right to be frustrated.

I am trying to implement a master plan at my course in Atlanta. Almost no one wants to hear about architectural improvements. Few care care; even fewer have a vocabulary to talk about the issues; fewer still want to pay for them. Member concerns are purely and simply about the look of a bunker or a green. That's what they want to see improved. I've not gotten a single question about how play on those same holes might be made more interesting.

All pretty sobering. KBM nails it.  Bob

Bob:

Point taken, and I concur.  The last few years have witnessed a lot of million-dollar bunker renovations where the strategy of the course did not change one bit ... just the aesthetics of the bunkers.  Of course, they replaced the bunker sand with "better" sand that is far more consistent to play out of, so it's not a total waste of money.

[Mike_Young]

TomD - I don' think Kelly is making a point about shapers. His real point is the frustration he feels with the underwriters and consumers of golf architecture who place an inordinate amount of weight on the 'look' of a course. He is right to be frustrated.

I am trying to implement a master plan at my course in Atlanta. Almost no one wants to hear about architectural improvements. Few care care; even fewer have a vocabulary to talk about the issues; fewer still want to pay for them. Member concerns are purely and simply about the look of a bunker or a green. That's what they want to see improved. I've not gotten a single question about how play on those same holes might be made more interesting.

All pretty sobering. KBM nails it.  Bob

Bob:

Point taken, and I concur.  The last few years have witnessed a lot of million-dollar bunker renovations where the strategy of the course did not change one bit ... just the aesthetics of the bunkers.  Of course, they replaced the bunker sand with "better" sand that is far more consistent to play out of, so it's not a total waste of money.

Not just bunkers....greens and course length also....you could lengthen a hole sideways as long as they felt it was longer..and some would be much more difficult if they were shorter...
I think another way of saying what happens on some of these jobs is:
The "signature" construction company has placed Bubba shaper #1 Larry  and his two brothers Darrell and Darrell on a site to handle the practice area shaping etc....Since Bubba and Darrelll and Darrell are there everyday and greenschairs Elwood Dude and Arnold Snead are quite impressed that they can move a dozier blade the way they are  moving it...well...they have no clue as to whether he is shaping correctly or not but since the trio of brothers is there everyday and has told Elwood and Arnold that they have worked for every Major Champion in exisitence and are now shaping T Eldrick's personal green at his new home.....well...the design services have almost a zero shot...I was told that Darrell and Darrell told ole Elwood that if he would go to town and get them a case of beer....then when he came back the old house at the back of the range would be gone.....( a five minute job for a D8)  Ole Elwood was so impressed that he had told the board " this is the kind of service and professionalism one gets when they hire the best"....and that is what happens folks..no joke...

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