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Steve Lang

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2010, 01:34:41 PM »
 8) Well, there's one in San Antonio at La Cantera Resort Course (Morrish/Weiskopf) that I've played many times, 4 of 5 tees are > 578 yds

HOLE  1, PAR  5 #1 handicap hole    
  Black  72.5/134  #1@ 665 yds
  Gold  69.6/127  #1@ 631 yds    
  Silver  66.1/113  #1@ 613 yds  
  Copper  68.2/119  #1@597 yds
  Jade  67.1/108  #1 @549 yds

strongly downhill off tee, slight dogleg right through valley

i like par 5's to start, gives you typically two swings before going at green and ability to potentially recover from a bad shot tee or second shot that isn't OB or otherwise lost..
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 02:12:41 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mike Benham

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2010, 01:48:19 PM »

I have to take issue with a couple of these thoughts (and not to defend MHM either, it should be well known what I think of him)


Let me clarify, par 5s as openers are in theory, a warm up hole, giving the golfer enough room to get off to a good start ...

So if you pump out an average drive of 250 yards, a 220 yard layup, your 3rd shot is about 108 yards, a PW or so ... adjust the distances up or down and your third is essentially the same as your second shot on a shortish or medium length par 4.

And this doesn't even take into consideration that for most accomplished golfers, a hole that allows them to hit their approach shot with a wedge, should be a clear birdie opportunity ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Matthew Rose

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2010, 04:00:39 PM »

#1 at Colonial is about 570-ish.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

PCCraig

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2010, 04:05:57 PM »
Obviously, there are hundreds of golf courses with opening par 5's with a length over 580yards...I don't understand what the point of this thread is? Is it to show how technology has made a 580 yard hole easy, or to show just how amazing Young Tom Morris' 3 was way back when?
H.P.S.

Dan King

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2010, 04:34:50 PM »
Michael_Hendren writes
BTW, was the hole not a par 6 at the time?  If so, should the question be phrased as follows:  How many courses today start with a par six?

Prestwick's first hole in 1870 would not have been a par six, par five or any other par number. The concept of par was still almost half a century away. Even the concept of bogey was from the very late nineteenth century.

It was just a golf hole you tried to reach in the fewest number of strokes.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
I could cope wi' Allan [Robertson] myself, but I could na cope wi' Tommy.
 --Old Tom Morris (on Young Tom Morris)

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2010, 05:12:22 PM »
I don't understand why people get so worked up about Melvyn's posts. If you don't like what he writes, ignore it. I've read his posts about ponds, carts, OTM, tiger Woods, etc. and while I may not agree with everything he writes, I see no point in responding in the manner some people do.

If he has been less than courteous with you, then take the moral high ground and respond with dignity. It's disappointing to read these responses to Melvyn's original question.

Mel,

We get it - you're kin to Young Tom also.  Anyone with a sense of history took your thinly veiled thread title as an opportunity to tout that. 

BTW, was the hole not a par 6 at the time?  If so, should the question be phrased as follows:  How many courses today start with a par six?

Mike

Mike,

Just wish to clarify that Melvyn's question did not make reference to par, so there's no need for him to rephrase the question.

Scott,

Did his post warrant the effort you put into searching through all those old threads? Forget about how many times Melvyn has mentioned Young Tom's 3. It probably won't be the last time.

In my opinion, getting a 3 at a 578 yd hole back in those days was some achievement. For those of you who haven't read "Tommy's Honour", I strongly recommend it.

A.G._Crockett

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2010, 05:21:11 PM »
The NLE Wake Forest Golf Club in NC started with a 600+ yd. par five.  The last few hundred yds. were uphill, and there was a creek running across the fairway as well.  It was quite a start.

Don't know if Scott Burroughs is ever on here anymore; he might have pictures, as WFGC was his home club until it closed a couple of years ago.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Patrick_Mucci

Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2010, 05:45:20 PM »
Both courses at Baltusrol start with shortish par 5's.
Nice warm up holes where forgiveness is built into the margins for error.

Quaker Ridge also has an opening par 5.

I think the original 1st hole at Somerset Hills was a par 5.

In addition, AWT also built a number of shortish opening par 4's, such as at Fenway, Ridgewood, etc., etc.

Perhaps, his reasoning behind this was the absence of ranges in his day, thus, he eased you into the round with a relatively benign opening hole.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

I can't think of an AWT course that had a decent range when the course opened.

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2010, 06:37:10 PM »
First hole at Colonial (Fort Worth) is almost 600 yards if I remember it well

John Moore II

Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2010, 07:52:16 PM »
The NLE Wake Forest Golf Club in NC started with a 600+ yd. par five.  The last few hundred yds. were uphill, and there was a creek running across the fairway as well.  It was quite a start.

Don't know if Scott Burroughs is ever on here anymore; he might have pictures, as WFGC was his home club until it closed a couple of years ago.

I will look back in the old threads here, see if a picture can be found. But from the very back tees, #1 at Wake Forest was something like 710 or 712 yards.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2010, 08:35:12 PM »
Michael_Hendren writes
BTW, was the hole not a par 6 at the time?  If so, should the question be phrased as follows:  How many courses today start with a par six?

Prestwick's first hole in 1870 would not have been a par six, par five or any other par number. The concept of par was still almost half a century away. Even the concept of bogey was from the very late nineteenth century.

It was just a golf hole you tried to reach in the fewest number of strokes.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
I could cope wi' Allan [Robertson] myself, but I could na cope wi' Tommy.
 --Old Tom Morris (on Young Tom Morris)


So Prestwick Golf Club has it wrong on their web-site:  http://www.prestwickgc.co.uk/history.html

Glad to see you posting by the way and hope you're well.

Kindest regards,

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Matt_Ward

Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2010, 11:08:41 PM »
Couple of great examples --

1st at Geronimo at Desert Mtn -- roughly 585 yards and absolutely dropdead beauty with the desert encroachment

1st at Sanctuary (Sedalia, CO) -- played from the "rattlesnake" tees the drop shot induces vertigo !

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2010, 11:26:36 PM »
Michael_Hendren writes:
So Prestwick Golf Club has it wrong on their web-site:  http://www.prestwickgc.co.uk/history.html

I'd be tempted to say they got it wrong. I'd love to see some documentation supporting the first hole at Prestwick was a par-6 in 1870. It's possible it was called a bogey-6 hole. It's possible but highly unlikely. Bogey originated in England and I've only seen it called that later in the 1880s. Perhaps somewhere it was called a four-shot hole or something like that and they decided it was easier to call it a par-6 on the Web than trying to explain what it was back in the day.

Shocking -- something you read on the Web could be inaccurate!

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
   "Göring has only got one ball
    Hitler's [are] so very small
    Himmler's so very similar
    And Goebbels has no balls at all"
(Sung to the tune of the Colonel Bogey March)

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2010, 03:15:27 AM »
Spyglass Hill is one and off hand Barnbougle Dunes may be another.

Sand Hills is around the 550yd mark


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2010, 04:19:54 AM »
Michael_Hendren writes:
So Prestwick Golf Club has it wrong on their web-site:  http://www.prestwickgc.co.uk/history.html

I'd be tempted to say they got it wrong. I'd love to see some documentation supporting the first hole at Prestwick was a par-6 in 1870. It's possible it was called a bogey-6 hole. It's possible but highly unlikely. Bogey originated in England and I've only seen it called that later in the 1880s. Perhaps somewhere it was called a four-shot hole or something like that and they decided it was easier to call it a par-6 on the Web than trying to explain what it was back in the day.

Shocking -- something you read on the Web could be inaccurate!

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
   "Göring has only got one ball
    Hitler's [are] so very small
    Himmler's so very similar
    And Goebbels has no balls at all"
(Sung to the tune of the Colonel Bogey March)


I believe Dan is correct.  Par may have been mentioned around 1870 as a score the best players playing very well could achieve and Prestwick's 1st may have been thought of as a hole in which six was a good score, but this much different from the concept of par which was later developed mainly in the US.  I say this because there was no concept of bogey or birdie in relation to par and there was nothing like a strict yardage connection with par.  In other words, par was far from formalized.  Five on Prestwick's first would have been a bloody good score and a three the stuff of legends - as is the case with YTM in 1870.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2010, 07:34:24 AM »
I wonder what brand of range finder they used to measure the length of the #1 hole at Prestwick in 1870? I am guessing it was a Bushnell. ;)  And by the way, was that 578 yards to front of the green or the center of the green?   :D
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 07:39:01 AM by David_Tepper »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2010, 08:05:18 AM »

David

Judge for yourself with these two maps

1900


1870 & 2000


As for distance, well I will leave that to you guys who seem to know it all.

Melvyn

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2010, 08:54:04 AM »
Dan, don't lecture me on Bogey.

Bogey ;)

 
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 09:08:21 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Melvyn Morrow

Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2010, 09:14:17 AM »

The interesting point is the lack of courses in the UK to promote this feature of the game. Fair amount overseas, but surprisingly very few here.

I wonder if that is a reflection of the game and how it is approached in these islands, perhaps limited by the original land available, yet Prestwick which has its limitations in that directions had one of the longest 1st Holes on record.

Interesting point would be to date these holes and see what the GCA trend was and when, as clearly more are found outside the UK than within. Then it may lead to yet another question, why, is there something testing or enjoyable in facing  a long hole at the start or is it simply down to the dictation of the ball and supporting club technology.

For what it’s worth my feelings on distance is like driving down a motorway. You want speed and distance ASAP yet it that not just plain bloody boring when compared to facing the designers challenges of the course. Distance is the curse of the long distance lorry driver, his aim is to eat up the miles before becoming just too bored, but then that’s not the intention of golf or for that matter golfers. IMHO distance cannot be translated into the challenge let alone skill, that’s not what golf is about either. Surely from the start it’s about the challenge, making the course not just interesting but playable. Not simply drivable otherwise what is the point. No doubt those among us, the long hitters and those dedicated to the alter of distance over anything else (apparently) will strongly disagree saying its takes skill to hit the ball into next week. Nevertheless I say there is more enjoyment and skill in the little fingers of the golfers who prefer to test themselves against the land, designers and the course at hand.

For the record how many top quality players or Pro’s have sunk a 600-700 yards first hole in 3 using the modern ball and equipment, also did distance aids help?

Melvyn

PS As for my family and our connection to golf, that’s nothing new, I have grown up knowing that many famous golfers and designers are related to me either by blood or the few who are not through marriage to family members. When discussing golf from the 19th Century their name are at the forefront of the game as well as design.
The fact that there are very few 500-600yard 1st Holes in British Golf is I thought interesting. As for Young Tommy downing the ball in 3 its a feat in Golf that even Tiger has not matched – certainly not using a Hickory shafted club and gutty ball.
Also while on the subject, I hear many saying that Tiger has taken Old Tom’s record of the greatest number of clear winning strokes in Majors, but let’s get the story and historical facts right before trying to crown a young pretender, Tiger has never achieved that record at The Open.- If you want to judge the man do so on the competition that he played when the record was originally set, don’t try and water it down by introducing more chances to achieve that gap. Remember the original record was set when there was just ONE major competition in the world. I would have thought that it should have been well beaten by now but no, certainly not in The Open.
Like it or hate it golf is part of the life and times of my family and has been so for well over 200 years, live with it or ignore it that’s you choice. As for me, judge me on my contributions (if any) that I have made to this sites, from historical knowledge be they the issuing of articles either to individuals or on this open site its self. Last but not least why do so many want to meet me if it is not for my connection to many of the 19th Century Champion golfers and designers. Out of all I have come across  over the years, it’s only a hand full from this site that reflects such nastiness to this individual.

Melvyn

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2010, 11:46:12 AM »
Melvyn:

The interesting thing to me about that long opener at Prestwick [or the even longer hole at Royal Blackheath in England from the same era] is that there are so few really long par-5's in the UK today.  I always assumed it was because no one enjoyed playing such a hole into the wind, when it might well become a four-shotter; but for whatever reason there are not many 550+ yard holes, even on the championship courses.  [Though of course some of those are adding length now.]

As for the opening hole at Prestwick, in that day, just being able to hit the ball solidly and long off a bumpy fairway was considered a major challenge; with today's equipment it is not the same.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2010, 11:57:20 AM »

Tom

Its very interesting that we have very few. Have you any idea of the time line of those not in the UK i.e pre WW2; last 30 or 20 years or are they just a new concept due to the long driving distances we have these days. Just looking for the history outside GB and if new reason why some designers are using them.

Melvyn

Garland Bayley

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2010, 12:56:01 PM »
I am not very familiar with courses across the pond. However, I seem to recall reading that Hackett would use long par 5 opener(s) to get across uninteresting ground to the better dunesland. Anyone familiar with Irish links can verify?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2010, 01:13:57 PM »
I don't understand this thread either?

I would rather start on a par 5 (of any length) rather than a par 3 or par 4 as it gives you extra time to make up for a bad shot.

But, to answer one's question - Medinah Course #1 starts with a 540 yard par 5...that is a birdie hole....and I've made 10+ 3s there.

EDIT - Didn't like the way this sounded when I re-read it.  Don't quite know how to fix it to communicate my point so I won't try.  So, if you read this and think "what a braggard dick head" - that was not the intent as I quite certainly suck at golf now.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 02:39:39 PM by Ryan Potts »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2010, 02:28:19 PM »
Ryan:

I built several par-5 starting holes earlier in my career [just because they fit the routing better], but I have decided that all things being equal, I would prefer NOT to start with a par-5.  My reasoning is just the opposite of yours ... I just hate it when you mess up the third shot to a par 5 and put a 6 on the card right out of the blocks.  I don't mind making a bogey on the first hole if it's a reasonably hard hole, but I don't like making sixes, period.


Melvyn:

One of the first articles I wrote for GOLF Magazine [back when I was twenty] was about the rare club of par-5 holes in America that had never been reached in two shots.  We identified about 20-25 of them, and nearly all of them have been hit in two by someone since 1982.

Interestingly, I wrote to a bunch of architects for that article, asking if they thought that was a good type of hole or not, and nearly all of them thought it was not good.  The exciting reachable par-5 holes at Augusta National were cited time and time again as the ideal.  However, not long after the article came out and those long par-5's got some attention, I started to see more and more of them being built in the U.S.  So, I don't think it was so much a change due to the equipment as a change in philosophy as to what was a good hole.

For that matter, while we recently had a thread here about par-72 courses being the standard, my observations from my year in the UK and Ireland was that very few courses there had four par-5 holes.  Nobody seemed to care much about whether par turned out to be 72 or 71 or 68, and it seemed that more architects on that side of the ocean trusted the wind and the elements to make a couple of holes into three-shotters on any given day.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 02:29:56 PM by Tom_Doak »

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2010, 04:27:16 PM »
Melvyn, do you know how Young Tom made his 3 and what the conditions were like?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

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