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Melvyn Morrow

How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« on: September 13, 2010, 07:34:18 AM »

How many courses today start with a 578 yard or there about's Hole?

I was reviewing some information for another GCA.com Member and while searching my course maps came across the old Prestwick design of Old Tom. It was the 1st Hole in 1870 Open that Young Tommy downed in three that gave him the lead which he never lost thus  winning the Championship for the third consecutive time.

It must be one of the most daunting starts to any round let alone Championship, facing a 578 yard hole. So can anyone advise if they have fist know of one and second played it and why do we not have more?

Melvyn


Jason Topp

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2010, 07:37:37 AM »
I have played some but I suspect the hole would need to be more like 700 yards with today's equipment to be comparable.

Mike Policano

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2010, 07:45:39 AM »
The first hole at Colorado Golf Club is 650 yards. It plays downhill and gets a 10% boost from the altitude.

Harwell Palmer

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2010, 08:09:18 AM »
<I>How many courses today start with a 578 yard or there about's Hole?

I was reviewing some information for another GCA.com Member and while searching my course maps came across the old Prestwick design of Old Tom. It was the 1st Hole in 1870 Open that Young Tommy downed in three that gave him the lead which he never lost thus  winning the Championship for the third consecutive time. </i>

Talamore golf course in Southern Pines ,NC-A Rees Jones design and the one with llamas used as caddies, starts with a par 5 that is played at 623 yds from the tips down to 564 yds from the whites.
There is a marshy area that needs to be avoid on the tee ball or even from the second shot from the back tees.
The last 200+ is played uphill.  Very difficult start.

Ian Andrew

Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2010, 08:13:20 AM »
Tillinghast's 1st at Scarboro Golf & Country Club...and its a great opener!

Tim Martin

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2010, 08:21:05 AM »
 The 573 yard opener at Connecticut Golf Club is a slight dogleg right and good hole.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2010, 08:25:58 AM »

Thanks Guys and keep them coming as I am looking them up. Must be a great start to a good days golf by pushing oneself, but then that's golf.

Melvyn

Paul OConnor

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2010, 08:42:43 AM »
Olympia Fields North #1 Black =  580 yards

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2010, 08:43:29 AM »
Melvyn,

I don't recall the exact yardage now, but my Wilderness at Fortune Bay starts out with something like a 589 yard par 5 and we added a button tee that I think extends it over 600 yards.  It also has double fw in both major LZ.

I can tell you the superintendent hates it.  Its hard to mow the equivalent of two holes before play gets started early in the morning and stay ahead of golfers the rest of the day.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bill_McBride

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2010, 08:44:38 AM »
The first hole at the Kingsley Club is 610 yards from the championship tee, 570 from member tee.

http://www.kingsleyclub.com/course-tour/1st-hole.html


Tom_Doak

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2010, 08:49:14 AM »
Melvyn:

Our first hole at Apache Stronghold in Arizona is (was?) something like 665 yards from a seldom-used back tee.  Uphill, too, although the altitude of 3000 feet negated that.  It's not really my favorite kind of opening hole, but in that case, it served to get across a big open stretch of ground and get up to the perfect site for the second tee.

John Moore II

Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2010, 08:53:33 AM »
the first at the north carolina state university course is a 580ish yard par five. but i agree with the previous comment that for a hole today to play like the first at prestwick did it would need to be a 525+ yard par four or a 750 yard par five. speaking which, the nle wake forest golf club had a 712 yard par five opener.

harwell-sorry if i offend as i know you are a member at talamore, et al, but that opener at talamore is just 'yuck.'

oh and tobacco road starts with a 560+/- par five.

i think, correct or not, golfers want to be eased into a round and more often than not the designer gives it them.

J_ Crisham

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2010, 09:06:30 AM »
The Alton municipal golf course- the Merion of the Midwest minus the wicker pins. Plenty of hecklers on the 1st tee from the steel mills nearby. Conditioning always firm and fast due to the shoddy maintenance practices. Not a hidden gem.
                             Jack

Bill_McBride

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2010, 09:31:35 AM »
Melvyn:

Our first hole at Apache Stronghold in Arizona is (was?) something like 665 yards from a seldom-used back tee.  Uphill, too, although the altitude of 3000 feet negated that.  It's not really my favorite kind of opening hole, but in that case, it served to get across a big open stretch of ground and get up to the perfect site for the second tee.

Is that the back tee on the practice putting green?

JohnV

Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2010, 09:46:58 AM »
#1 at Spyglass is 595 from the tips.  Downhill, but into the prevailing wind.

Andy Troeger

Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2010, 09:52:24 AM »
Not a great course, but Eberhart-Petro Municipal in Mishawaka, IN starts with a 568 yard hole, the last 200 yards or so climb gradually uphill and and the green borders the St. Joe River. A five is well earned. The third is 564 yards, across the river and bending to the left through a significant grove of trees. Two very stout starting holes for a very short course (about 5600 yards total).

Mike Hendren

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2010, 09:55:06 AM »
Mel,

We get it - you're kin to Young Tom also.  Anyone with a sense of history took your thinly veiled thread title as an opportunity to tout that. 

BTW, was the hole not a par 6 at the time?  If so, should the question be phrased as follows:  How many courses today start with a par six?

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jim Colton

Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2010, 09:59:44 AM »
Opening hole at Blackwolf Run River Course is 610 yards.

jonathan_becker

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2010, 10:10:38 AM »
Erin Hills #1 is 615 from the black tees.

Scott Szabo

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2010, 10:24:04 AM »
#1 at Castle Pines is close to 650, although quite a bit downhill and with the altitude many pros could get home in two.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Scott Warren

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2010, 10:24:44 AM »
Good of Melvyn to bring up Young Tom's 3 on the opening hole of the 1870 Open Championship at Prestwick for those who missed it in this thread eight weeks ago.
Or this thread five months ago...
Or this thread last August...
Or this thread also last August...
Or this thread last February...
Or this thread in Nov 2008...
Or this thread in July 2008...
Or this thread in May 2008.

Even the best stories get tired if you wheel them out that often.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 10:26:31 AM by Scott Warren »

Garland Bayley

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2010, 12:11:17 PM »
Good of Melvyn to bring up Young Tom's 3 on the opening hole of the 1870 Open Championship at Prestwick for those who missed it in this thread eight weeks ago.
Or this thread five months ago...
Or this thread last August...
Or this thread also last August...
Or this thread last February...
Or this thread in Nov 2008...
Or this thread in July 2008...
Or this thread in May 2008.

Even the best stories get tired if you wheel them out that often.

Get a life Scott. Why do you want to ruin the rest of our reading with this crap?
Do you have an envy problem?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Benham

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2010, 12:17:17 PM »
Regardless of how many times MHM has brought up the historical event, why is a 568 yard hole considered daunting?  It is essentially a medium length par 4 (or short par 4 for longer hitters) ...

For accomplished golfers, a shortish par 5, in the 500-525 range would put more pressure on the start of your round as you are inclined to think you need to make birdie right out of the gate.

And for those curious, I did not witness Young Tom's feat in person ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tyler Kearns

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Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2010, 12:43:18 PM »
Sutton Bay's 1st measures 661 yards, although substantially downhill, and the same could be said for Greywalls, although at a mere 579 yards and not quite so much downhill. Both offer breath-taking views.

TK

John Moore II

Re: How many courses today start with a 578 yard Hole?
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2010, 12:52:09 PM »
Regardless of how many times MHM has brought up the historical event, why is a 568 yard hole considered daunting?  It is essentially a medium length par 4 (or short par 4 for longer hitters) ...

For accomplished golfers, a shortish par 5, in the 500-525 range would put more pressure on the start of your round as you are inclined to think you need to make birdie right out of the gate.

And for those curious, I did not witness Young Tom's feat in person ...

I have to take issue with a couple of these thoughts (and not to defend MHM either, it should be well known what I think of him)

A 568 yard hole is not a mid or short length par 4 for any golfer on this planet, save maybe Jamie Sadlowski and Jason Zuback. Even Bubba Watson will have 200 yards at least left into the green, and thats assuming the hole plays down wind and firm. While a 568 yard hole is reachable in two, its not a short par 4 by any stretch of the imagination. Did you mean to say short par 5?

On to a 525 yard hole...that hole presents no challenge unless it has something very unique about it, like the 13th at Augusta. A 525 yard hole is a Driver-5 iron hole for nearly any elite player on a firm golf course. As for shorter players, hey, they leave themselves a perfect wedge approach...want to bet they make birdie 2 or 3 times out of 4?

On to what it would need to be today in order to play the same...I can't seem to find what clubs Young Tom used on the hole...However, I will work through a couple of suppositions based on the facts I have A) it is said in several articles that Young Tom was one of the longest players in the game at the time B) it is known that the opening hole at Prestwick was a par 6 hole at the time. So, lets extend that out to today's time. According to the USGA, a par 6 hole is any hole greater than 690 yards. However, I should say that nearly every professional golfer could reach that hole in three shots, likely with a short or mid-iron in hand. So, lets them take one of the longest players on tour today, Mr. Dustin Johnson, and presume he is forced to hit Driver-3 wood-3 iron into a par 6 hole. Well, his longer drives likely go 330 yards, I should say that an average 3 wood for him goes 290 yards off the ground, and a 3 iron will probably travel in the neighborhood of 250 yards (I hit my 3 iron about 220, Dustin is 30+ yards longer than me off the tee, so I'll keep the numbers the same). So, lets add that up kids, 330+290+250=870 yards.

Yes, in order for this hole to play the same today, it would need to be an 870 yard opening hole. Anyone here ever seen an 870 yard hole? I know I haven't.

So, the question of asking if there are courses starting with 578 yard openers is fairly well flawed. 578 yards, unless it's a slightly downhill par 4, is not a difficult hole, generally speaking, by today's standards. On another note, Scott Warren gets it.

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