[Garland Bayley]

Where is Kalen?

Washington, just like you Sean.
Kalen is back working in Spokane again.

[Tony Weiler]

I started thinking about the inclusion of ND in the initial post a bit more.  Our little state has two courses ranked in GD's top 100 public.  How many other states can say that?  There are MANY that don't even have one, let alone two.  Just food for thought.  And, we do also have terrific pheasant hunting.   

[JC Jones]

Florida.  99% of the courses are Doak 0's.

[Sven Nilsen]

On a quality courses per person basis, North Dakota would rank pretty high, as would Utah, Nebraska, South Dakota and Montana.  Michigan might top the list.  Wyoming, even with a low population number, has only a handful of quality courses (Rochelle Ranch, Shooting Star and perhaps one or two other courses in Jackson).

Others that might be at the bottom of this list:  Iowa, Mississippi, Louisiana and, dare I say it, New York. 

[Garland Bayley]

Florida.  99% of the courses are Doak 0's.

Jason scores again! The state you would never think of is the obvious choice!

[Jud_T]

I'd say it's California south of LA....Bigger than Rhode Island.  Best consistent golf weather in the country and 1 course I've found worth playing....(Barona Creek)....

[Tim Pitner]

Others that might be at the bottom of this list:  Iowa, Mississippi, Louisiana and, dare I say it, New York. 

I'd venture that Iowa's The Harvester is at least as good as the Links of North Dakota, Bully Pulpit and Hawktree.  And Iowa has a great hidden gem in Saddleback Ridge. 

Louisiana and Florida seem like good bets. 

[Matt_Ward]

Sven:

Hold the phone amigo -- The Empire State has no peer in the USA if the category is tied only to private courses. If you add the public side into the equation it clearly has issues but I would still say it doesn't merit your desire to tag it with the"worst" label.

Tim:

Spot on w Louisiana.

I also mentioned previously a few of the New England states -- -- Vermont and NH are quite thin -- in both the private and public sides of the equation.

JC:

If we are talking on percentages of the total amount of golf available then FL would be a suitable candidate. Some of the already entioned states have little or next to nothing that is quite good.

[John Moore II]

Florida.  99% of the courses are Doak 0's.

Jason scores again! The state you would never think of is the obvious choice!

I guess Seminole, Calusa Pines, World Woods, TPC Sawgrass, Jupiter Hills, Pine Tree, etc., are all just dumps right? I've played 9 courses in Florida, none of which I would consider to be a zero, and two of the courses I've played are $20 muni's. JC is just angry because Seminole or Calusa Pines won't invite him to play.

[Tony Weiler]

Florida.  99% of the courses are Doak 0's.

Jason scores again! The state you would never think of is the obvious choice!

I guess Seminole, Calusa Pines, World Woods, TPC Sawgrass, Jupiter Hills, Pine Tree, etc., are all just dumps right? I've played 9 courses in Florida, none of which I would consider to be a zero, and two of the courses I've played are $20 muni's. JC is just angry because Seminole or Calusa Pines won't invite him to play.

John, I think JC started a thread with that same title a year or so ago and it had quite a bit of discussion.  Also, I think he played Seminole, but I could be wrong. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:

Hold the phone amigo -- The Empire State has no peer in the USA if the category is tied only to private courses. If you add the public side into the equation it clearly has issues but I would still say it doesn't merit your desire to tag it with the"worst" label.

Hence the "dare I say it" in my post.  But on a per capita basis, I'd venture NY is low on the list.  I won't argue it has a lot of really great tracks, but it also has a ton of people. 

[Matt_Ward]

Sven:

The title of this thread is "worst state in the lower 48."

There's no way he Empire State would remotely touch that level. The private side is the best in the USA and the public side -- while not especially noteworthy after Bethpage Black, is still quite good.

The other states mentioned have little of anything of consequence.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:

The title of this thread is "worst state in the lower 48."

There's no way he Empire State would remotely touch that level. The private side is the best in the USA and the public side -- while not especially noteworthy after Bethpage Black, is still quite good.

The other states mentioned have little of anything of consequence.

Matt:

Why shouldn't it be measured on a per capita basis?  What's the point of having a lot of good golf courses if you have to compete with every other joe-golfer to get a tee time, or worse, get off the waiting list of a private club.   I guess it comes down to how one subjectively defines "worst" for this exercise, in my case its a question of availability. 

If I were the last golfer in the US, I'd probably set up shop on LI.  Right now I'd rather avoid the great unwashed and the 6 hour round.  I'll take ND or Utah.

[Matt_Ward]

Sven:

You can add whatever you wish -- but the title of THIS thread did not state that. You did.

NY State has a private portfolio of courses that is untouchable. On the public side many are quite affordable and getting access to them is not that demanding -- save for the folks who want the 10 AM tee time on a Saturday morning at Bethpage Black.

Six hour golf can happen at the Black but it's a stretch to think that all public courses in NY State provide that kind of situation.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:

You can add whatever you wish -- but the title of THIS thread did not state that. You did.

NY State has a private portfolio of courses that is untouchable. On the public side many are quite affordable and getting access to them is not that demanding -- save for the folks who want the 10 AM tee time on a Saturday morning at Bethpage Black.

Six hour golf can happen at the Black but it's a stretch to think that all public courses in NY State provide that kind of situation.

I'm picking up what you're putting down, its just that we have a different definition of "worst."
 

[Jud_T]

Sven,

It is another thread perhaps...You'd have to do a quality vs. quantity vs. population matrix.  For instance, Illinois probably has one of the better per capita ratios, but easy access to a bunch of mediocre tracks isn't necessarily such a huge bonus.  I guess Michigan would be one of the best based on your criteria....also North and South Carolina....

[Brad Tufts]

I nominate a pair from the east - Vermont and New Hampshire.  And, while Wyoming is definitely in the mix, so should be Montana.

New Hampshire...definately not.  Full of decent, affordable public tracks, many with Golden Age pedigree.  On the private side you have Lake Winnie, Manchester CC, Nashua CC, Concord CC, Bald Peak, and a few others.  NH isn't the worst.

Vermont has a good number of decent public courses, and only about 6 or 7 privates.  Nothing truly great save for Ekwanok.  VT is closer to the title this thread is looking for, but I don't think it quite fits.

I think Louisiana fits the bill pretty well, with a dearth of greatness in both public and private...how about Iowa?

[Mike Hendren]

Tim Wieman once referred to the Volunteer State as an architectural wasteland.  Perhaps hyperbole, but Tennessee and the contiguous states of Kentucky, Arkansas, Mississippi and Alabama don't exactly get the juices flowing.  The dirth of untouched classic courses is particularly noteworthy.

Mike

[Tim Pitner]

I think Louisiana fits the bill pretty well, with a dearth of greatness in both public and private...how about Iowa?

Iowa's not a golf leader, to be sure (among other factors, it's too fertile), but it's hard to believe it would be the worst state, especially in proportion to population.

Although a native Hawkeye, I didn't play a lot growing up so I can't speak too well about the depth of courses.  Wakonda (L/M) would probably lead the private side and The Harvester (Foster) the public.  I believe Davenport CC is an Alison; Cedar Rapids CC is a Ross.  Waveland is a public course that is often spoken of highly.  As I mentioned above, Saddleback Ridge is a hidden gem in Solon. 

[John Shimp]

TN has some nice golf courses.  Honors, Holston Hills, Chattanooga, Memphis CC, Lookout Mtn (is it in GA??).

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

Let me switch locales a bit further to the east -- Maine.

Frankly, much of New England is really on the lite side -- is it the worst? No, but it's not on the short list for must travel / must play places for me -- save for The Bay State which is quite good on both the private and public side of the aisle.

Louisiana still is up there -- ditto for places like Arkansas and Mississippi. Wyoming could be much better too because there are very few real golf options there -- save for the Jackson Hole area and a few of the bigger communities.

[Matt_Ward]

The sad part is that The Beehive State has a few courses that should be rated among the top 100 oo so courses in the USA.

I've been to the state numerous times and while the depth of layouts is not overwhelming by any means -- there are no less than half a dozen layouts that have solid offerings. Unfortunately, mountain time zone states (with the possible exception of Colorado) often get short shrift. UT suffers that situation now.

Sand Hollow in Hurricane is a solid public layout and is just small notch below the likes of a Wine Valley to me. The holes along the ledge on the back side are extremely well done.

Ditto for the likes of Red Ledges in Heber City and Glenwild in Park City.

One can also throw in Thanksgiving Point in Lehi.

One other course of note is The Hideout in Monticello -- the main issue there is the overall consistency of the turf. Well done layout by Forrest Richardson.

[Kalen Braley]

I just stumbled across this thread...and I must admit the title gave me a good chuckle.

Utah has a boat load of quality options that are not only very affordable, but in good condition with interesting holes .  Yes its true they don't have many top notch courses, 8 and above on the Doak Scale, but they have a whole slew of courses in the 4-6 range that are just terrific and way cheap. In addition to small green fees its also well to keep in mind that making a tee time is hardly if ever a problem, especially on Sundays! 

Overall, in the affordabilty, accessibilty, quality layouts, and lack-of-crowds departments....Utah is unmatched by anywhere out West, with the exception of probably the Denver area.  (Can't speak for the mid-west and east of there)

[Garland Bayley]

...
Overall, in the affordabilty, accessibilty, quality layouts, and lack-of-crowds departments....Utah is unmatched by anywhere out West, with the exception of probably the Denver area.  (Can't speak for the mid-west and east of there)

Didn't know that the Denver area was in the running for worst. But, if you insist on Utah being unmatched in the west on worst, I will not argue, as I believe we got concession on Florida being the worst in the lower 48.

[Michael George]

How is Louisiana not running away with this one.  Is there any classic design in the state?  I could not find one Ross, MacDonald, Raynor, Flynn, MacKenzie, Colt/Alison, Strong or Tilly course in the state.  Further, no modern is ranked anywhere or even has a cult following.

Would any Louisiana course be ranked in the top 20 of the better golf states?

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