[Phil Benedict]

The 4th hole in last week's tour event basically played like a long par 3.  Everybody went for the green and the only decision was club selection (3-wood for the long hitters, driver for most everyone else).  The hole wasn't particularly interesting as set up the day I was paying attention, when the length was like 295.  Tiger hit a 3-wood into the left front bunker and blasted out to a gimme for a routine 3.

Maybe it's not that easy to design a great drivable par 4, but if everyone goes for the green is it by definition not a great hole since there is no strategy?

[JNC Lyon]

Great question!  I guess I don't have an answer yet, but I will say that the "Drivable Par-4" is probably an invention of modern golf.  How many of these 300-yard par fours were actually drivable in the 1920s?

[David Lott]

Yes.

And a necessity, since it puts some spice into some otherwise obsolescent holes.

[JLahrman]

It's certainly become the type of hole that every course seems to have to have all of a sudden.  It seems a driveable par 4 is somehow automatically considered a hole where you have to make strategic choices, even if there is not much disincentive to take a whack at it.  I love an interesting short par-4 as much as the next player but there is no reason to have one just so you can say that you have one.

[Michael Dugger]

No more of a cliche than any other golf hole...

The problem is a well-designed drivable par 4 needs to possess these two qualities:

1. It must be extremely difficult to do!  Only a perfect shot will find the green

2. The penalty for taking the chance and failing needs to be pretty severe.  Going for the green and "bailing out" or something of that sort needs to be punished, not leave the player 15 yards short in the fairway.  That is too forgiving...

[JLahrman]

No more of a cliche than any other golf hole...

The problem is a well-designed drivable par 4 needs to possess these two qualities:

1. It must be extremely difficult to do!  Only a perfect shot will find the green

2. The penalty for taking the chance and failing needs to be pretty severe.  Going for the green and "bailing out" or something of that sort needs to be punished, not leave the player 15 yards short in the fairway.  That is too forgiving...

I sort of agree on #2.  I don't think the punishment needs to necessarily be severe, but you should have a harder shot than you would if you laid back at 100 yards.  If you wind up 30 yards short of the green in the fairway, it's possible to have a harder shot than you would have had from 100 yards.

[jonathan_becker]

No more of a cliche than any other golf hole...

The problem is a well-designed drivable par 4 needs to possess these two qualities:

1. It must be extremely difficult to do!  Only a perfect shot will find the green

2. The penalty for taking the chance and failing needs to be pretty severe.  Going for the green and "bailing out" or something of that sort needs to be punished, not leave the player 15 yards short in the fairway.  That is too forgiving...

I sort of agree on #2.  I don't think the punishment needs to necessarily be severe, but you should have a harder shot than you would if you laid back at 100 yards.  If you wind up 30 yards short of the green in the fairway, it's possible to have a harder shot than you would have had from 100 yards.

13 at Kingsley is a good example for this.  If you miss right off the tee you're dead....but if you bail left and leave a short pitch, it's a damn hard one with the junk from the right now staring you in the face for a miss long.  Factor in the bunker to pitch over as well and you'll be wishing you would have laid back off the tee.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The 15th at the Twenty Ten course at Celtic Manor should be interesting to see in the Ryder Cup:

http://www.celtic-manor.com/golf-course-RyderCup.aspx

[Matthew Petersen]

I noticed Mickelson, of all people, didn't go for the green at TPC Boston's #4 on Sunday, so there must have been some strategic value in laying up (he did make birdie). Then again, in his post-round interview, Hoffman said he was trying to drive it in the front bunker, since he figured it would be a relatively easy up and down from there.

I agree with Michael Dugger that a good driveable par 4 should be difficult to hit and have a relatively severe penalty for failing in your effort. But then we get into that old strange question of what is an appropriately sever penalty? Other than a ball in the water, there is virtually no hazard that will deter the top 100 players on the PGA Tour. It's kind of folly to say a hole is too easy because that tiny group of players had their way with it. For most players, a deep bunker is a severe hazard, especially if the green isn't a large or easy target.

[PCCraig]

The 4th hole in last week's tour event basically played like a long par 3.  Everybody went for the green and the only decision was club selection (3-wood for the long hitters, driver for most everyone else).  The hole wasn't particularly interesting as set up the day I was paying attention, when the length was like 295.  Tiger hit a 3-wood into the left front bunker and blasted out to a gimme for a routine 3.

Maybe it's not that easy to design a great drivable par 4, but if everyone goes for the green is it by definition not a great hole since there is no strategy?

On the Tour they are less strategic because 90% of Tour Pro's short games are so good they just need to get it around the green and they will get up and down most of the time. But for the everyday golfer? There is tons of strategy.

I will agrue that the 4th green at TPC Boston isn't really easily reached in one, I would bet Shotlink shows something like 5%. Because of the HUGE bunker on the left hand side (the one Tiger aims for) and the fact that the green is elevated and tiny...you would have to hit a perfect shot to actually have a put at it. For an average golfer the 2nd shot on that hole is really tough as the green is super shallow, and it's only a half wedge. Regardless it's a huge improvement over what was there before!

[PCCraig]

The 15th at the Twenty Ten course at Celtic Manor should be interesting to see in the Ryder Cup:

http://www.celtic-manor.com/golf-course-RyderCup.aspx

I'll follow up with this: Drivable Par 4's have become a cliche (and total conclusion) in a Ryder Cup.

[Mac Plumart]

I agree with Michael D's comments.

It needs to be really tricky to pull off, either do to length, hazards, or whatever...

It needs to be worth the risk if you can pull it off...

It needs to be real punishment if you don't pull it off...

And it needs to offer real options when choosing not to try to drive the green...different avenues of approach, perhaps mutiple lay up angles, avoidance of hazards, etc....but choosing not to drive it should cost a full stroke vs. the guy who does pull off driving the gren.

[RJ_Daley]

The 15th at the Twenty Ten course at Celtic Manor should be interesting to see in the Ryder Cup:

http://www.celtic-manor.com/golf-course-RyderCup.aspx

I'll follow up with this: Drivable Par 4's have become a cliche (and total conclusion) in a Ryder Cup.

I'm not sure what is meant by (and total conclusion).  Do you mean it is a foregone conclusion that there would be a drivable par 4 in a Ryder Cup, or that being at the 15th may be a dramatic conclusion to a particular match, sort of the one who gambles with a lead does game set match sort of slam the door, whereas the players one or two down, don't chance it?  


I think that the most important feature of the drivable 4 is the green size and its orientation.  Riviera 10 and Wild Horse 15 come to mind.  The small green orientation is key.

[Phil McDade]

TCC at Brookline had two short par 4s on the front nine -- both early in the round on the front nine. Don't recall if they were set up to become driveable at the '99 Ryder Cup.

I think the one at the Belfry, an otherwise bland course from TV viewing, is one of the best, with a somewhat narrow (or shallow, depending on your angle) green running alongside the creek. Fun to watch, but wish it was a bit later in the round. The 15h at Celtic Manor looks interesting just from the graphic.

RJ -- one of my favorite short par 4s is the 8th at Lawsonia -- which looks (thanks to tree clearance) driveable but really isn't. The green orientation there has a lot to do with its appeal, for me, because the best opening into that green is from the least obvious line from the tee -- a wonderful bit of visual deception on Langford's part.

[RJ_Daley]

Yep Phil, that 8th hole is fun.  But, I don't know anyone, even our seldom seen friend there in Madtown, Brad, who could drive it and keep it on that raised platform of a green.      So, not really a drivable par 4 in my book.  Hell, it is getting so 10 has slipped down to a drivable par 3 for me, if I hit it just right! 

If you want to see a great drivable 4, I have an empty seat for a Nebraska trip coming up soon... 

[Carl Rogers]

The tenth at Riveira is usually thought of as a very good hole.  However, missing the green for tour pros, does not carry much penalty.  Does that make it less of hole?

[PCCraig]

The 15th at the Twenty Ten course at Celtic Manor should be interesting to see in the Ryder Cup:

http://www.celtic-manor.com/golf-course-RyderCup.aspx

I'll follow up with this: Drivable Par 4's have become a cliche (and total conclusion) in a Ryder Cup.

I'm not sure what is meant by (and total conclusion).  Do you mean it is a foregone conclusion that there would be a drivable par 4 in a Ryder Cup, or that being at the 15th may be a dramatic conclusion to a particular match, sort of the one who gambles with a lead does game set match sort of slam the door, whereas the players one or two down, don't chance it?  


I think that the most important feature of the drivable 4 is the green size and its orientation.  Riviera 10 and Wild Horse 15 come to mind.  The small green orientation is key.

RJ:

What I meant was that it seems a course can't host a Ryder Cup without a cliche drivable par-4 late in a round. Seems to be the case since the Belfry in the early 1990's. The short par-4 is great for match play, however it becomes a cliche when courses being built esp. for the Ryder Cup feature such a hole late in the round, almost as part of an equation. Just my thought.

[Tim Pitner]

Yes, I believe it is.  It's become one of the boxes to tick off.  No driveable par 4 on the course = demerit.  I believe Matt Ward said this exact thing regarding Wine Valley.  

I like variety in holes and can appreciate a good, driveable par 4, but don't see it as a necessity for a course.  

[PCCraig]

TCC at Brookline had two short par 4s on the front nine -- both early in the round on the front nine. Don't recall if they were set up to become driveable at the '99 Ryder Cup.

#4 and #6 are short par-4's but I would only actually call #6 driveable as there isn't really a legit opportunity to drive the green on #4.

#6 is a ~300 yard par-4 that is straight up hill with a quassi skyline green, there is a real strategic choice to either hit driver and go for the green and flirt with nasty bunkers and high rough (but be able to see the green), or to lay back and have a blind uphill 2nd.

#4 is a fantastic short par-4, but it isn't drivable as the green is totally blind from the tee and it's impossible to run a tee hot up to the green throuh deep greenside bunkers and rough. Most players hit a long iron to a flat part of the fairway leaving an easy 100 yard wedge to the tiny green.

[Garland Bayley]

As long as there continues to be more 510 yard par 5's than 300 yard par 4's, drivable par 4's will not become a cliche.

[BCrosby]

Why are drivable par 4's are in vogue but extremely long par 3's are not?

Bob

[Peter Pallotta]

Why are drivable par 4's are in vogue but extremely long par 3's are not?

Bob

Ha! Because we are the hollow men, Bob, the whole lot of us.  The stuffed men. Leaning together, headpiece filled with straw. We say one thing, with alarming regularity, but what we want above all else are birdies! Alas - our dried voices, when we whisper together here on gca.com. are quiet and meaningless, as wind in dry grass or rats' feet over broken glass in our dry cellar.

I trust this answers your question

Peter
  

[BCrosby]

Peter - Don't try to pull that T.S. Eliot bull#@% on me.

We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar

Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us -- if at all -- not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.

I never thought the day would come when Eliot would help explain golf architecture. But hey, here we are. Great stuff Peter. I now see it all clearly.

Bob

[BCrosby]

Before being so eruditely interrupted, let me return to the thread to note the following:

In a world in which par is not supposed to matter, am I the only one that thinks it odd that short par 4's are extremely popular but long par threes (of more or less the same length) are not?

Bob

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob - there is no doubt in my mind that par is the most powerful concept in golf and golf course architecture, and that this is true whether someone seeks after par consciously, consistently and with near desperation or whether (in a futile attempt to master his imagined baser/more primitive instincts) he consciously mocks the term and can't stop talking about the meaninglessness of the concept or stop himself from disparaging his less-evolved brethren for not achieving enlightenment and throwing away the card and pencil. And yet, staring us right in the face, as plain as day, is the almost  total absence of extremely long Par 3s in golf and golf course architecture, at any level or in any place -- and no amount of wind blowing through the dry grass will alter this fact or what this fact tells us about ourselves and the game/ethos of golf as it currently exists. 

Peter  

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