[Garland Bayley]

...
Garland:

Red Ledges has far more playability and varied holes than Nicklaus / Pronghorn. When you actually play both courses feel free to send me a note based on personal observations rather than computer writing armchair QB analysis.

How do we know you've played any of these courses? You never provide us pictures, even when you promise them, and claim to have them available.

[Pete_Pittock]

Matt,
Pronghorn is the best Tom Fazio course I have played. BUT. I've only played six (Osprey Point, World Woodsx2, Pinehurst 8, Reynolds P) and most of those were 8+ years ago. And my Oregon list has Pronghorn Nicklaus at #6.

[Michael Dugger]

Lava tube 8th

[Joel Zuckerman]

Joel:

What's so absurd? .

You and I both travel about and play, visit and comment on GC's...but we observe things differently.

I think that courses should have tee boxes no more than 400--500 yards apart at most, from blacks to blues to whites...it's one of my "core beliefs," for lack of a better term.  I also HATE when tee boxes are "scrunched up,"  the blues you signed up for are supposed to be 6.600 yards, but in actuality, they have the blue markers on the white tee pad 6-8 times, so the actual yardage is more like 6,200...another pet peeve.

On the other hand, I don't even notice something like the multiple (and in your opinion, unsightly) tee pads at a GC like VR...it's not what concerns me, or influences me...maybe it's a "right-brain, left-brain" thing?

Lastly--I am very meticulous about my handicap posting, probably to a fault, and to mix-and-match tee boxes is something I wouldn't consider doing, unless the GC offered a "combo tee" option on the scorecard...which is something I am seeing more and more of these days.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

You say you shot 96 at Red Ledges.

Answer me this -- if you played the tip tees then the course is beyond your means. I said previously that the tip tees should only be played by very low handicaps. I don't know what your handicap is or what type of game you have. But a 96 demonstrates for me that you should not be back there if that's where you played.

If you scored 96 from the next tee box -- then frankly you had a bad day. Let me also point out that Red Ledges when it first opened had very fast greens and they were quite firm -- that may still bethe case now -- if someone has played the course this year and can say for certain that would be a plus. Shots needed to be hit with great execution to get close and I see no harm in that. Heck, if you go to Oakmont you will find similar results and few complain that Oakmont is some sort of slog for members and their guests.

Joel, mix and matching holes is common place for a whole set of reasons. Others do it -- I see no reason why you would not consider it.

One other thing -- you diss Red Ledges for being overly demanding. I need holes and specifics. I did mention how the facility is likely going to change the long par-3 15th. The green cannot handle the added length from the tips. It would be a smart move. In regards to the other holes I believe a number of them are outstanding. Again, let me stress that when you have very fast greens and hard surfaces that require great execution to hold them it's likely people will bitch and moan because thei hybrid shot into a hole didn't make a crater hole into the green.

Joel, I've played almost all the key Rees Jones courses in the USA. His style never varies -- he simply superimposes it on any number of locations -- 3 Creek Ranch in WY -- is another that comes to mind. The stacking of the tee pads is unsightly and counterproductive. At VR you have a fairly ordinary front nine which is nicely countered by a back nine that is one of his best contributions.

Nicklaus gets plenty of heat on this site but I find Red Ledges to be one of his very best. The course works well with the native site and the comnbination of the golf and the scenery are nothing less than intoxicating. I'll be the first to admit that people shold not be playing tees that are beyond their means -- you have fools who try to do this when playing Bethpage Black and the same results happen.

Thanks for your comments -- like I said before -- give me hole specifics and I'll be happy to read and answer back with my take.

Pete:

I agree w you on the qualities of Pronghorn / TF. Unfortunately, few people have played it and it gets lost when OR golf is spoken about given the fanfare tied to Bandon. A first rate course that would play even better with firm conditions -- or at least firmer conditions than what was present when I was there.

Michael:

Thanks for posting the pic -- there's even more green and pin space to the left side than what is shown.

GB:

Contact the clubs yourself and ask them if I have been there. You stuck your colossal foot in your mouth before when you questioned whether I played WV or not. By all means -- be sure to do it again -- I'll provide the salt so it tastes even better.

In regards to the photos -- the person that was with me is on assignment -- once they are back and can release some of the photos they will be posted. End of story.

In regards to Red Ledges -- if you have played there simply say so.

thanks.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I would concur with what Don Mahaffey reported early in this thread ...

When Pronghorn opened they had the tightest bentgrass fairway turf I have ever seen, anywhere.  It was frightening around an elevated green like #9 on the Nicklaus course, it felt like you could go back and forth over the green all day if you got a bit yippy about it.  Jack came to the groundbreaking at Sebonack straight from the opening at Pronghorn, and he couldn't stop talking about the turf there ... I got the impression even Jack thought it was over the top, and was a bit worried whether the members would be able to play off turf that tight.

Of course, they were spending a fortune on the maintenance, and John Anderson was rumored to be the highest-paid superintendent in the country at that time.  I would guess that once the real estate sales slowed, the developers stopped subsidizing the maintenance budget so heavily, and that the members themselves were not anxious to continue spending that kind of money annually.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

I don't doubt the maintenance level at Pronghorn -- I have been to the site previously before I played both courses and can attest to that. But reviewing courses is not a static exercise -- one has to evaluate based on existing situatoins.

For whatever reason plenty of courses in the arid west take the quick approach to course conditioning -- douse the course w H20 and keep it all green. The Nicklaus Course still has, in my mind, issues tied to playability -- several of the hole corridors are quite narrow for the average player and the sage brush is simply not a good thing to have that close to the playing lines.

The Fazio Course is better because it understands that issue. For whatever reason -- the layout gets little attention and it's one of the best TF courses I have played.

No doubt conditioning is a secondary review element - but I just have a major pet peeve with places that overwater to that extent that footprints can easily be seen when walking upon the turf.

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