[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

I played recently with a GCA'er who recently had his knee replaced.
I also played with a fellow who recently had his hip replaced.
Another fellow had back surgery that encountered some complications.
And, I played with a fellow who's going to be 80.

Should they be deprived of playing golf because they needed carts pre or post surgery ?

When it's 85 and 90 degrees out and humid, should the 80 year old be deprived of playing because he needs a cart ?  ?

I don't get this elitist mentality whereby you and others insist that everybody walk irrespective of their particular issues.

Cart use has broadened and extended the spectrum of golfers.

Would it be nice if everyone could walk ?   Sure, but that's not realistic, especially if you want golf to be an inclusive game, a game for the ages and the aged.

Carts allow those golfers who would be otherwise unable to play, to continue to enjoy this great game.

Why are you so against their use ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I'm thinking some of these new GPS connected carts will be able to control on rainy days etc and if practiced correctly may help eliminate some cart path issues...

I recall them putting those in up at Fortune Bay.  The cart guy programmed it to NOT go over a cliff.  It was a bit unnerving to see him aim his cart at the cliff at full speed, but the tech worked as desired.  And, they do program them to stay away from greens, out of wet areas, etc.  So, yes, some of the tech can come from carts (expensive, but coming down in price) rather than paths.

Waiting for "Back to the Future" type hovercraft, myself.....

[BCowan]

Paul,

I played recently with a GCA'er who recently had his knee replaced.
I also played with a fellow who recently had his hip replaced.
Another fellow had back surgery that encountered some complications.
And, I played with a fellow who's going to be 80.
Any Moron would know that carts are for elderly and people with medical reasons.
Should they be deprived of playing golf because they needed carts pre or post surgery ?
Way to spin this, are you really serious?
When it's 85 and 90 degrees out and humid, should the 80 year old be deprived of playing because he needs a cart ?  ?
Seriously?  How moronic of a statement is this?
I don't get this elitist mentality whereby you and others insist that everybody walk irrespective of their particular issues.
Senior Mucci there is an alarming amount of 30 and 40 year olds perfectly able to walk and they have their arses in a buggy.
Cart use has broadened and extended the spectrum of golfers.
They are great for elderly and medical issue folk
Would it be nice if everyone could walk ?   Sure, but that's not realistic, especially if you want golf to be an inclusive game, a game for the ages and the aged.He never said that.  ''wouldn't be required if more people walked''!  More people isn't 65+ year olds

Carts allow those golfers who would be otherwise unable to play, to continue to enjoy this great game.
obviously
Why are you so against their use ?
Not to speak for Paul, but i would assume he is for young healthy able bodied lazy arses walking.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

I played recently with a GCA'er who recently had his knee replaced.
I also played with a fellow who recently had his hip replaced.
Another fellow had back surgery that encountered some complications.
And, I played with a fellow who's going to be 80.

Any Moron would know that carts are for elderly and people with medical reasons.

No such caveat was provided

Should they be deprived of playing golf because they needed carts pre or post surgery ?
Way to spin this, are you really serious?

Yes


When it's 85 and 90 degrees out and humid, should the 80 year old be deprived of playing because he needs a cart ?  ?
Seriously?  How moronic of a statement is this?

It's a reasoned question in the face of someone advocating against cart use

I don't get this elitist mentality whereby you and others insist that everybody walk irrespective of their particular issues.
Senior Mucci there is an alarming amount of 30 and 40 year olds perfectly able to walk and they have their arses in a buggy.

Would you cite your information source or survey that substantiates your statement.
Or is this just another unsupported claim.

Cart use has broadened and extended the spectrum of golfers.
They are great for elderly and medical issue folk

What about someone who's not feeling well, hung over or recently injured ?
Who are you to tell anyone how they should play a round of golf

Would it be nice if everyone could walk ?   Sure, but that's not realistic, especially if you want golf to be an inclusive game, a game for the ages and the aged.He never said that.  ''wouldn't be required if more people walked''!  More people isn't 65+ year olds
But that's who's playing more golf and no one ever provided any qualifying caveats

Carts allow those golfers who would be otherwise unable to play, to continue to enjoy this great game.
obviously

Why are you so against their use ?

Not to speak for Paul, but i would assume he is for young healthy able bodied lazy arses walking.  

But you are speaking for Paul and you're unqualified to do so.

Secondly, how golfers choose to play golf on a given day is their business, not yours.

You don't know the factors that go into the decision to ride or walk, so why pontificate as if you're the grand Pooh-Bah

[Paul Gray]

I hereby endorse everything Ben wrote. Clearly he understands context.......

But let's not turn this into a battle, dear Pat. I simply pointed out that it would be beneficial for the ground if more (NOT ALL) people walked. I just think that the whole buggy culture is less than beneficial to the game; more revenue but more costs to boot, and therein lies a model which only succeeds in times of economic boom. Stability, sustainability, etc etc.

I'm actually not a snob about buggies at all and fully support almost anything which allows older golfers to go on loving their game. As it goes, hopefully VERY prematurely, only today I was eyeing up one of those one man buggies. When the time comes, I'm getting me one of those!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Forgetting the insults, the truth is, if ONLY the older players and disabled took carts, the need for paths would be greatly reduced.  Turf can handle 10-20 carts a day, even in the same path, but can't handle 50-125 per day nearly as well.

All site specific, of course.

Run the revenues for carts thought. I think most courses break even on golf and profit on carts...and lose money in the clubhouse.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

At a club I'm very familiar with, cart revenues, after expenses made a significant profit, but, unfortunately, the revenue dedicated to carts, then to the green budget was diverted and made part of the club's general revenue, sort of like the gasoline tax and our Government.

Paul,

You and Ben aren't living in the real world.
Yes, we'd all prefer cart use at a minimum, but it ain't going to happen.

One of the determining factors is cost.

If it costs $ 40 to take a cart and $ 60 to take a caddy, which choice is the low cost financial choice the golfer will make ?
The real world answer is the cart.

Clubs have to develop a prudent cart/caddy platform and pricing mechanism that encourage caddy use versus cart use.

I thought that you and Ben would have been able to figure that out without my help.

[Paul Gray]

Pat,

Brilliant. I mention walking and your first thought is to hire a caddy. And apparently I don't live in the real world! You, dear boy, are fast becoming an antique. 

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Brilliant. I mention walking and your first thought is to hire a caddy. And apparently I don't live in the real world! You, dear boy, are fast becoming an antique. 

Paul,

I won't hold your ignorance against you, but, at the great majority of clubs in the NY area, members aren't allowed to carry their bags.
Junior members, yes, but, not regular members.

You have so much to learn about golf in the U.S. and I can only devote so much time to your education.

 

[Paul Gray]

Pat,

Brilliant. I mention walking and your first thought is to hire a caddy. And apparently I don't live in the real world! You, dear boy, are fast becoming an antique. 

Paul,

I won't hold your ignorance against you, but, at the great majority of clubs in the NY area, members aren't allowed to carry their bags.
Junior members, yes, but, not regular members.

Exactly. Cultural change or slow death.

You have so much to learn about golf in the U.S. and I can only devote so much time to your education.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Brilliant. I mention walking and your first thought is to hire a caddy. And apparently I don't live in the real world! You, dear boy, are fast becoming an antique. 

Paul,

I won't hold your ignorance against you, but, at the great majority of clubs in the NY area, members aren't allowed to carry their bags.
Junior members, yes, but, not regular members.

Exactly. Cultural change or slow death.

Paul,

Carts vs Caddies is not the financial issue at clubs today.

It's the expansion of services, the morphing of golf clubs into country clubs.
Yet others will argue that their club needs to offer diverse services in order to attract members.

You have so much to learn about golf in the U.S. and I can only devote so much time to your education.

 

[Paul Gray]

Pat,

Brilliant. I mention walking and your first thought is to hire a caddy. And apparently I don't live in the real world! You, dear boy, are fast becoming an antique. 

Paul,

I won't hold your ignorance against you, but, at the great majority of clubs in the NY area, members aren't allowed to carry their bags.
Junior members, yes, but, not regular members.

Exactly. Cultural change or slow death.

Paul,

Carts vs Caddies is not the financial issue at clubs today.

Nope, but carrying your own bag does reduce the maintenance budget.

As an aside, there's a course near me which used to be owned by the military. Don't know if the policy still applies but buggies were only available for those that could produce a suitable medical certificate. If shot in service, you received a significant discount! 

It's the expansion of services, the morphing of golf clubs into country clubs.
Yet others will argue that their club needs to offer diverse services in order to attract members.

You know far more about your own country than I but, based upon some failed ventures here in he UK, I do believe you and I are actually in agreement. People with healthy addictions to golf keep golf clubs going, not the occasional croquet player.

You have so much to learn about golf in the U.S. and I can only devote so much time to your education.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

My first encounter with carts was at Montclair Golf Club.

In order to obtain a cart, you had to have a bona fide letter from a doctor, who was subject to being cross examined if the letter seemed nebulous.

All of the members at Montclair were lean as it was a difficult course to walk.

Today, cart use has changed with the culture of golf in the U.S.

I'm not so sure that cart use swells the green budget as we used to run at a considerable profit until the finance chairman redirected the revenue from the green budget to the general treasury.

Late in the afternoon, golfers in carts can get nine holes in in an hour or less.

I hear your lament, I just don't see cart use dwindling unless there are financial incentives in place to do so

[BCowan]

Paul,

You and Ben aren't living in the real world.
Yes, we'd all prefer cart use at a minimum, but it ain't going to happen.
I live in the real world, NYC isn't the real world.  It isn't a representation of the USA as a whole.
One of the determining factors is cost.
Yup it costs money to maint carts and to drop $17-25 every round for them.
If it costs $ 40 to take a cart and $ 60 to take a caddy, which choice is the low cost financial choice the golfer will make ?
The real world answer is the cart.Again, you aren't in the real world.  Your viewpoint is of top 50 courses in the US.  Flyover, ever hear of it?  Or the fact my club 60% walk and the 40+ year olds use trolley's.  What a concept

Clubs have to develop a prudent cart/caddy platform and pricing mechanism that encourage caddy use versus cart use.
Clubs that aren't anywhere close to full, need to allow trolleys and introduce others into their club or go extinct
I thought that you and Ben would have been able to figure that out without my help.
If there is anyone that needs help, it is you  

[BCowan]

Pat,

Brilliant. I mention walking and your first thought is to hire a caddy. And apparently I don't live in the real world! You, dear boy, are fast becoming an antique. 

Paul,

I won't hold your ignorance against you, but, at the great majority of clubs in the NY area, members aren't allowed to carry their bags.
Junior members, yes, but, not regular members. Many clubs in the midwest have the same moronic policies.  Unless they are in a booming area or are near full in the membership department, they ought to rethink their position.

You have so much to learn about golf in the U.S. and I can only devote so much time to your education.
Paul isn't missing anything but idiotic policies, and that is coming from a former caddie. 
 

[BCowan]

''Carts vs Caddies is not the financial issue at clubs today.

It's the expansion of services, the morphing of golf clubs into country clubs.
Yet others will argue that their club needs to offer diverse services in order to attract members.''

   I want to applaud you for saying something that is true.  I think you had a revelation.

[Sean_A]

Jeff,

All fair enough but, again, I'm unconvinced that serious damage would be done in the limited American playing season.

Paul, trust me, with heavy play, serious damage is done in less than a month

And the point about sustainability is not simly an ecological one. Maintenance costs are where the economic argument begins to fall apart.
My point really is that unless the public perception can be changed you simply don't have a product which is going to be lean enough to survive.

I'll be happy to take your word for it then.

All I can add really is that buggies without cart paths get by without too many problems in the UK. I suppose the argument should perhaps be that cart paths wouldn't be required if more people walked. You know better than I the reasons for the lack of demand for trolleys on your side of the pond but I believe that's beginning to change. Here's hoping.

Paul

While I have sympathy with your PoV, cart use in the US is far, far greater than in the UK.  There are tons of UK courses that if 50-100 carts were allowed out on a day it would tear the course to hell.  I can go 20 rounds and not see a cart used in the UK.  In the US you can't go 20 seconds without seeing a cart used.  They are a bloody menace, but there is no way people will park and walk.  Jeepers, have you not seen Americans shop?  They will drive from end of a strip mall to the other rather than walk between two shops.  As Jeff says, its a culture of convenience and that culture is pervasive throughout all aspects of American life. Every time I go back to the US my wife and I are stunned by the amount of waste I see based on convenience. 

Ciao

[BCowan]

S,

   Do you think single carts (lightweight ones) could lower maint. costs in the US also through cart path expenses? 

[Sean_A]

S,

   Do you think single carts (lightweight ones) could lower maint. costs in the US also through cart path expenses? 

Ben

Wouldn't there be a lot of added expense with storage and maintenance with a fleet of single carts?  ALso, most of the single carts I have seen would tear up courses because the wheel base is too narrow to disperse the weight enough.  I spose it would be an interesting experiment to see a club skip paths or only have minimal paths and use only wel designed single carts.  I know if it were my course, that would be an option I would seek because I really detest cart paths.  Paths to me are the prime example if one wants to talk about the game or the business of the game.  Paths are unquestionably bad for the game because they interfer with play and are ugly, but great for the business of the game because they literally put bums in the seats.   

Ciao   

[BCowan]

S,

   We agree completely.  That would be a great case study.  Do you see many of these bellow?

[Paul Gray]

Sean,

I fully appreciate what you're saying. That's very much my point. I'm not suggesting Americans are suddenly going to start walking but I struggle to comprehend a policy which flatly prohibits it. Every round walked is one less buggy used. And on a positive note, I've been getting the impression that the trolley is at least beginning to make an appearance over there.

And you really don't need to speak ill of your fellow Americans. I think you've long been accepted as an honorary Brit!  

[Paul Gray]

Ben

Have problems here with pics but just google 'Powerhouse Titan'

[BHoover]

Are we still having this tired debate? Just let folks have a choice-walking, riding , caddy, etc. I could not care less who takes a cart. Just let me choose (and because I'm cheap, I choose the most cost-effective option).

[BCowan]

The reason why this is important Brian, is to determine how many carts (what kind) dormant Bermuda or a fescue grass could take. 

[BHoover]

The reason why this is important Brian, is to determine how many carts (what kind) dormant Bermuda or a fescue grass could take.  

I thought this thread was about natural-looking cartpaths? And does your home course have either dormant Bermuda or fescue? Mine does not, nor does our superintendent object to cart usage. So I repeat my question about why we continue this debate?

But those single carts would require more carts, which means additional upkeep costs and more wear and tear on the course.

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