[Jon Wiggett]

Though there is little that can be done for paths running parallel to the line of play those that go across the line disappear if they are tilted slightly away and also do not end up with balls on them.

Jon

[Matthew Lloyd]

i would like to see more courses just have dirt paths for the carts. the kicking up of dust never bothers me. it is an outdoor game after all.

[Paul Gray]

Cart paths are an integral part of most golf courses, especially member golf courses.

When it rains and the superintendent prohibits carts on the golf course you'll soon come to realize their value.

Cart paths and the material/s that comprise them, are so site specific.

Hidden Creek uses crushed sea shells.
While that works at Hidden Creek, and other shore courses, it wouldn't work at inland courses.

Cochina works well at some locations in Florida

Concrete reinforced with fabric works well at others, especially when heavy equipment will use the paths.

There is no "one size/kind fits all"

Good judgement is the key

So what happened in America when carts were first introduced and there were no paths?

[David Lott]

At Old Tabby Links (Spring Island) we have sand in places where there is a natural sand base and dirt with gravel elsewhere. Works great and not tough to maintain because it's the natural condition.

[BCrosby]

Someone someday is going to figure out a way to make cart paths both attractive and part of the course design.

That person will become rich and famous.

Bob

[Rees Milikin]

Going by memory they used to have paved path, now it is sand/dirt path.  it intersects #6 tee, #2 tee and behind #1 green

You are correct, they are now a natural path. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cart paths are an integral part of most golf courses, especially member golf courses.

When it rains and the superintendent prohibits carts on the golf course you'll soon come to realize their value.

Cart paths and the material/s that comprise them, are so site specific.

Hidden Creek uses crushed sea shells.
While that works at Hidden Creek, and other shore courses, it wouldn't work at inland courses.

Cochina works well at some locations in Florida

Concrete reinforced with fabric works well at others, especially when heavy equipment will use the paths.

There is no "one size/kind fits all"

Good judgement is the key

So what happened in America when carts were first introduced and there were no paths?

What happened was that golfers drove the shortest distances from point "A" to point "B" and it resulted in wear and tear to extensive areas of play, especially around the greens and tees.

The first line of defense was to inform the golfers that carts should not be driven with __ yards of the greens and tees.
But, golfers rarely listened and as cart traffic increased, so did the damage.

Enter cart paths, stage left.

[BCowan]

Rees,

   Great photos.  I think they removed more trees left #2 tee and short of the bunker left i am pretty sure since i played there in Nov.  It keeps getting better. 

[Paul Gray]

Cart paths are an integral part of most golf courses, especially member golf courses.

When it rains and the superintendent prohibits carts on the golf course you'll soon come to realize their value.

Cart paths and the material/s that comprise them, are so site specific.

Hidden Creek uses crushed sea shells.
While that works at Hidden Creek, and other shore courses, it wouldn't work at inland courses.

Cochina works well at some locations in Florida

Concrete reinforced with fabric works well at others, especially when heavy equipment will use the paths.

There is no "one size/kind fits all"

Good judgement is the key

So what happened in America when carts were first introduced and there were no paths?

What happened was that golfers drove the shortest distances from point "A" to point "B" and it resulted in wear and tear to extensive areas of play, especially around the greens and tees.

The first line of defense was to inform the golfers that carts should not be driven with __ yards of the greens and tees.
But, golfers rarely listened and as cart traffic increased, so did the damage.

Enter cart paths, stage left.

Just what I thought.

The point I'm leading to is that cart paths may only exist because an unreasonable model emerged whereby courses were expected to be presented as near as damn it to Augusta in April.

And it's not just an American issue. I play at a links golf course on the south coast of England, meaning that I play at arguably the driest, best draining course in Britain. Albeit limited, we have cart friendly paths where once we had naturally formed routes through the course.  Go figure.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

"Unreasonable" model is opinion....obviously the supers and clubs of the era didn't share that opinion.

It's not just "kicking up dust", its driving through mud when that dust gets wet.....and as Pat says, most courses tried the yellow ropes (many still have them in spots, because paths entry/exits still funnel traffic predictably) but I bet golfers still drove right through the mud, if that was the shortest route, or just to the side of it, expanding the problem areas.

No doubt carts and paths introduced some problems, and they have dealt with it the best they could.

BTW, with all the emphasis on permeable pavements in other parts of the landscape architecture world, I am surprised at how little a dent they have made in golf.  That said, pure gravel, without some kind of stabilizer, has never worked for me, or anywhere I have seen it tried (at least on clay soils.) Put it on any kind of slope, and it washes in any big rain. hate to have to rake sand up bunkers AND gravel up miles of cart path. 

So far, solid surfaces have been the only thing that works, but I am sure that better minds than mine will come up with a better solution at some point.  It is probably already out there, and the sticking point is cost, especially with cash strapped golf courses right now.

[Paul Gray]

Jeff,

Unreasonable is indeed an opinion and I appreciate that you have a business model to protect but I've yet to see a course so damaged by buggies that it was rendered  unplayable. Superficially affected, yes, but not significantly damaged.  Wet winters in Britain tend to result in buggies being temporarily banned. And that'll be during a period when I believe most American courses are either closed, under snow or just too darn cold for many to venture on to.

And whilt you are of course correct about the views of supers in a forgone era, where has that left the sustainability of the game today?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

I have no business model to protect, since I don't own a golf course (at the moment).  However, my clients do, and in terms of financial sustainability, having carts allows play when wet, so yes, suspending carts that often - especially for those clients who book lots of outings that can't easily be rescheduled, is part of their business model.

As to environmental sustainability, "superficially affected" is also an opinion, and most supers will tell you that healthy turf requires the least water, chemicals, etc.  Not sure making a decision to kill off some turf to avoid paths would measure out to be an overall plus.  Agreed that all would be better if paths were permeable.

Again, its tough.  I suspect not all the thinking that has been done to date is complete, and reducing the enviro footprint of all golf courses is sure an area that can be improved.

[Paul Gray]

Jeff,

All fair enough but, again, I'm unconvinced that serious damage would be done in the limited American playing season.

And the point about sustainability is not simly an ecological one. Maintenance costs are where the economic argument begins to fall apart. My point really is that unless the public perception can be changed you simply don't have a product which is going to be lean enough to survive.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

Well, I'm in DFW, where we have a nearly 12 month season, with five months where we play on dormant Bermuda, and if it gets damaged, it doesn't start growing again until next summer.  America is a big place with lots more varied conditions than the UK.

I agree it would take a public perception change, but its really bigger than that - America is a culture of convenience....I doubt we give up our big drivers or our carts and required paths. You may argue "required" but until I see a major management company move away from paths in favor of more constant turf repair, I will go with the majority opinion of operators here.

The math is pretty simple - if a full path system costs $600K, or about $50K annual debt right now, do you spend more than that in labor and materials each year fixing the worn spots, roping them off, etc.  As concrete and asphalt costs go up, maybe there will be a small reversal of trend, or perhaps just delaying installing new paths even if needed on old courses.  And, maybe by that time, some gravel with polymer permeable path will be available.  If concrete keeps rising, some kind of innovation must be done to bring costs down, and perhaps help the environment and aesthetics as well....the free market in action.

I do know what you are saying, but actually, there are literally thousands of low fee US courses with partial paths, some made of gravel, that do

[archie_struthers]

 

Fine asphalt screenings work,exceedingly well .  They are durable, pervious and innocuous looking. Definitely in the mix

[Jeff_Brauer]

Archie,
Do those need a metal edge, or just cut into the soil?

[Paul Gray]

Jeff,

And just how are those 'major management companies' getting on with their current model? No one struggling I suppose? 

[BCowan]

Paul,

    Something for you 

[archie_struthers]

 


Jeff B , no need for metal edge with screenings . Take a trip to an asphalt plant near you and they will gladly show you some variations .  I should take pictures of the ones we used at Greate Bay on a few of the holes. .  Four years in and going strong .

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

Interestingly, ANGC does not have cart paths for golfers

[Mike_Young]

I'm thinking some of these new GPS connected carts will be able to control on rainy days etc and if practiced correctly may help eliminate some cart path issues...

[BCowan]

I'm thinking some of these new GPS connected carts will be able to control on rainy days etc and if practiced correctly may help eliminate some cart path issues...

Duke Univ course has it.  Tech is awesome.  It makes cart driver go backwards and to the place they need to be. 

[Paul Gray]

Paul,

    Something for you 

Cheers B.

At least it's a lot better than concrete!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

All fair enough but, again, I'm unconvinced that serious damage would be done in the limited American playing season.

Paul, trust me, with heavy play, serious damage is done in less than a month

And the point about sustainability is not simly an ecological one. Maintenance costs are where the economic argument begins to fall apart.
My point really is that unless the public perception can be changed you simply don't have a product which is going to be lean enough to survive.

[Paul Gray]

Jeff,

All fair enough but, again, I'm unconvinced that serious damage would be done in the limited American playing season.

Paul, trust me, with heavy play, serious damage is done in less than a month

And the point about sustainability is not simly an ecological one. Maintenance costs are where the economic argument begins to fall apart.
My point really is that unless the public perception can be changed you simply don't have a product which is going to be lean enough to survive.

I'll be happy to take your word for it then.

All I can add really is that buggies without cart paths get by without too many problems in the UK. I suppose the argument should perhaps be that cart paths wouldn't be required if more people walked. You know better than I the reasons for the lack of demand for trolleys on your side of the pond but I believe that's beginning to change. Here's hoping.

 

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