News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dead Greens
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2010, 11:41:14 PM »
FWIW I recently had Pat O'Brien come and do both a site evaluation for my course and he also came and gave a presentation to my membership on the pros and cons of the new ultra dwarf bermudas versus bent in the transition zone (Atlanta).

After the two hour presentation ( 45 minute presentation and 1 hr 15 min of questions!) my superintendent, Mark Hoban, his asst. Lucas Walters and I joined Pat for dinner and more talk about the ultra dwarfs with Champion, mini verde and Tif?something?? Being the basis for the discussion.
Pat is a HUGE proponent of the ultra dwarfs for Atlanta but the notion of no fungicides at least in Atlanta is a myth.  For Atlanta, according to both Pat and Chris Purvis (the super widely regarded in Atlanta as having the best Champion greens around) fungicides are necessary.  the overall cost may be less than bent but fungicides are applied even in the winter.  Also there is a significant labor expense in the winter months as tarps must still be applied by hand. 

Ultra dwarfs Bermudas will have an impact in Atlanta but there ain't no perfect grass!
Chris,
Very well stated, we all seem to be guilty of generalizing sooner or later when it comes to maintenance. Wouldn´t surprise me to have a terrible winter in the next ten years that kills some bermuda greens even with covers and the debate will start again in the other direction.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dead Greens
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2010, 06:50:48 AM »
FWIW I recently had Pat O'Brien come and do both a site evaluation for my course and he also came and gave a presentation to my membership on the pros and cons of the new ultra dwarf bermudas versus bent in the transition zone (Atlanta).

After the two hour presentation ( 45 minute presentation and 1 hr 15 min of questions!) my superintendent, Mark Hoban, his asst. Lucas Walters and I joined Pat for dinner and more talk about the ultra dwarfs with Champion, mini verde and Tif?something?? Being the basis for the discussion.
Pat is a HUGE proponent of the ultra dwarfs for Atlanta but the notion of no fungicides at least in Atlanta is a myth.  For Atlanta, according to both Pat and Chris Purvis (the super widely regarded in Atlanta as having the best Champion greens around) fungicides are necessary.  the overall cost may be less than bent but fungicides are applied even in the winter.  Also there is a significant labor expense in the winter months as tarps must still be applied by hand. 

Ultra dwarfs Bermudas will have an impact in Atlanta but there ain't no perfect grass!

Chris,
Have you decided what to do?  Also, how have your greens held up this summer?  You have a lot of trees (and probably a lot of restrictions on cutting them!), and I would imagine that it has been tough.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Steve Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dead Greens
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2010, 10:16:09 AM »
Steve Pozaric

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dead Greens
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2010, 02:38:42 PM »
Right now I am sticking with A-1/A-4 bent grass.  I had four temporary greens this summer but they were entirely the result of human error on our part (a chemical misapplication of the wrong product and at 28x rate >:()

Had we not had that error, we would have had some thin and weak greens but no temps. 

If I could snap my fingers and have Champion Bermuda or my bent I am not certain what I would do.  If I were a high traffic daily fee I'd go bermuda without a second thought.  If I had 36 holes, I'd have one bermuda and one bent.  With 18 holes and as a small private club I need to look at my unique situation and ask several questions understanding that each grass has its advantages and disadvantages:

1.  When is the greatest demand for my course to be in the best shape?
2.  What are my members expectations.  While I might know that the new ultradwarfs have no grain, are a better economic choice, will hold shots and can be managed to be sofeter or extremely firm, can be painted when dormant........my memer may not want to accept that and their perceptions, are what really drives the bus.

For my course, I think that fall through spring golf is when the course needs to be at its peak and I think with our current bent I can have excellent conditions given a normal year from September 15th through June 15th.  There is no doubt that excellent bent putts better than excellent bermuda--no contest.

This year was literally record setting and excellent bermuda in July is certainly better than dead bent BUT I don't think you make a decision based on one or even two years.

Average highs and lows for Atlanta (2-3 degrees warmer than where I am in the burbs) in July is 88 for a high and 68 for a low.  The newer bents can absolutely survvive and even thrive in normal Atlanta weather conditions.  We have been bent since 1973 and from 1973-2006 it was a very inferior Penncross.  Granted, we were not mowing at >115 but the newer bents are much denser and more heat resistant.

If I wanted firm, fast greens for summer and early fall or was hosting events (like a PGA or Tour Championship) then the decision is a no brainer--bermuda.  My home course closes in the winter, is a summer club that hosts a lot of state and national championships and I think the Champion Bermuda would be a terrific application there.

Of course, if Al Gore is correct and we are infor decades of sustained temps of 6-9 degrees warmer than historic averages, the choice to switch to bermuda will be made for no other reason than all the bent in the south died with no chance of coming back.

A.G./Gary

My course has seen the removal of about 1,000 trees these past few years and with the exception of one or two small areas I think bermuda could make it OK.  We did have Dr. Elsner from CLemson come and do his light studies for some greens and tees and bermuda would be do-able.  Of greater concern to me is the severe slopes in my greens.  We would have to work pretty hard in the dormant time for bermuda to keep the greens slow enough to be puttable.  People forget that bermuda normally goes dormant around the second hard frost in Atlanta (October 25th) and the last frost is around April 15th).  Bermuda really has a pretty narrow growth window for us.  My super feels that bermuda doesn't really kick into gear until June (green up of course is earlier but I'm talking real growth) and then the plant really slows down by October.

Atlanta is tough and no two courses or memberships are the same.

 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 06:47:23 PM by Chris Cupit »

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dead Greens
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2010, 06:49:34 PM »
Chris,
Very well stated, we all seem to be guilty of generalizing sooner or later when it comes to maintenance. Wouldn´t surprise me to have a terrible winter in the next ten years that kills some bermuda greens even with covers and the debate will start again in the other direction.


But isn't bermuda the most appropriate grass for the Atlanta area and the South in general? My resent experience in the South may have been a fluke but after years of putting on bent and bent/poa I found I putted much better on bermuda!
[/quote]

Kelly
I think it was coin toss until the arrival of the new ultra dwarfs but the scale is now heavily favored in the ultra dwarfs direction but Chris notes some very valid points in the above post..
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 06:54:28 PM by Randy Thompson »

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dead Greens
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2010, 08:22:23 PM »
My course, triangle area NC, lost all greens this year.

They are rebuilding all of them and regrassing with some sort of bent blend...so this is at least one course that has decided against Bermuda.


Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back