Dottie Pepper's Take on Chambers Bay

[Richard Choi]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1173819/index.htm%EF%BB%BF

She says CB is not "quite ready for prime time" and gives following reasons:


• The sandy soil dried out last week, and the course got out of control. The Open will be played in the softer conditions of June, but managing the firmness will be a challenge.


>>I think this is a non-starter. Mike Davis went overboard during the stroke play because he was not sure how the course was going to play, but now they do and rest of the week setup (especially Sunday) was pretty ideal. The fact that it is in June will make it easier to control the firmness of the course.


• The extreme slopes around the greens make the penalty for hitting a poor shot greater than the reward for hitting a good one. The Open should identify a golfer's skill, not his luck.

>>Shouldn't poor shots be punished??? Especially at US Open level??? It is pretty simple at Chambers, miss to the proper side and you will have a decent try at birdie/par, miss to the wrong side and you are proabably 50 yards away with bogey/double in your face. To me, that is the beauty of the this course and why it is such a stern, but fair, test. "Reward for hitting a good one"? You mean the ball doesn't stick when you hit the pin? Too friggin' bad.


• A true links doesn't have elevation changes like those at the par-3 9th or 15th. More important, the slick, dry rough and steep slopes are a dangerous combination for galleries.

>>This is the most salient point she makes. My wife fell 4 times while walking and countless others did so as well. Moving the crowd safely around the dunes will be a challenge. And as I said before, if I can change anything about the course, it would be the 9th. The new tee at 15th is kinda ridiculous as well.


• It's a terrific site for match play, where making a huge number means losing only one hole, but attempting to shoot a 72-hole score on such an extreme course could get ugly. I saw more four-putts than I thought possible from the world's top amateurs.

>>It is US Open we are talking about, isn't it? Isn't that the par for the tourney?


• With so many holes playing so many different ways, practice rounds become a guessing game, and play approaches six hours. That's not my idea of sustainability in golf.

>>Variety and requiring imagination is now a negative for a golf course??? The round approaching 6 hours is not because of the course, it was only about 20 min to 30 min quicker at the Home Course. These guys need to learn how to play faster.

It is quite amazing to see how the opinions have changed from pre US Am to after US Am. Before US Am, the concern was how EASY the course was going to be because the fairways are so wide and sideboards are so helpful. Now, everybody is crying uncle and saying it is too difficult. Amazing how much conditioning can affect the difficulty of the course.

What do you think about Dottie's points?

[Tony Weiler]

Richard, I've never played it, and so I'm not sure how valid Dottie's points are.  I did watch it on TV, and had many friends who said how "ugly" it looked.  Anyway, that doesn't concern me as you and many others have said it is a great course, and I don't need "green" to enjoy golf on a great course.  My question is how many other courses have been awarded a US Open BEFORE a professional stroke play event was ever held there?  I would think the USGA would want to "test" a course like that before a national championship is held there, but maybe not. 

[Tim Leahy]

I agree with all her points, from just watching the am, which is why I thought all it needed was a windmill and clown's mouth. It is supposed to be the US Open not the the British Open West.

[Richard Choi]

So, Tim, you believe TOC and other British Open courses should have windmill and clown's mouth?

Interesting...

[Matt_Ward]

Richard:

the term "ugly" needs to be flipped on its meaning.

too many americans see "ugly" if brown color intrudes. the problem is the reverse -- when places overdoes w h20 and a result you get layouts that play slow, often boring and with top players are e-z to score upon.

i have not been to cb so i cannot comment on the course there but getting less water on sites and allowing the bounce of the ball to play more of a role is the only way to go for golf -- both for strategic reasons and those tied to pr and overall public awareness that golf is not wasting such a valuable resource.

[Phil McDade]

Richard:

As I mentioned on another thread, I think Pepper is channeling her former (and whiny) professional colleagues.

If nothing else, CBay represents a sea-change in what kind of course the US Open will be contested. I think that's fine. It's a big world, big enough to host the US Open on a variety of courses.

Folks who throw around the word "links" and think of a certain type of course haven't been to a lot of links courses. The Open rota courses are largely flat, save for maybe Sandwhich -- but plenty of links courses have major undulations. And why does everyone get wrapped up in this word? CBay strikes me as a course with some interesting elevation changes that can potentially play quite fast and firm -- who cares if it's a true links?

I'm not sure CBay looked any more baked out than Hoylake a few years ago when the Open returned there.

[Garland Bayley]

Richard, I've never played it, and so I'm not sure how valid Dottie's points are.  I did watch it on TV, and had many friends who said how "ugly" it looked.  Anyway, that doesn't concern me as you and many others have said it is a great course, and I don't need "green" to enjoy golf on a great course.  My question is how many other courses have been awarded a US Open BEFORE a professional stroke play event was ever held there?  I would think the USGA would want to "test" a course like that before a national championship is held there, but maybe not. 

It is a gorgeous course, in a gorgeous setting. If you want to see ugly, go look a what Jim Engh did at Columbia Point in Washington.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tim,
Fortunately, I've seen CB in person and without a club in hand.  I walked the great trail that either skirts the course far above (on the east) or goes through the course (on the west side).

The course is absolutely beautiful in person.  For some reason, it looked gawky on TV to me to me too.

One thing that did catch my eye negatively was the grey color of the sand and the underlying soil.  I'm used to sand being brown/beige.  But that's really not very important for playability.

-
One thing I do agree with is "The extreme slopes around the greens make the penalty for hitting a poor shot greater than the reward for hitting a good one. The Open should identify a golfer's skill, not his luck."    That was my biggest critique - too much perfect only a few feet from hell.

[Michael Huber]

Just my opinion, but if there really are that many four putts, something probably should be changed.

[john_stiles]

The northern left coast golfers...........does it tend to be cooler and wetter in June ? 

[Anthony Fowler]

Richard, I agree with you just about 100% and with Dottie only in regards to gallery safety.

What's wrong with elevation changes?  I know that people here don't like holes 8 and 9 at Chambers but I have yet to hear good justification.  8 was a blast to play, and my opinion of it only improved as I watch the Am.  It's certainly challenging with the with the wind up there, but there are so many different ways to try to play the hole.  Just look at how Uilhein and Chung made 4 and 5 respectively in the second round of the match  .

9 is indeed a severe drop, but it's a fun challenge to try to judge the wind correctly (and there's an appropriate margin for error given the distance, wind, and elevation).  The only downside with 9 is the time it takes to walk from the tee to green.

Can anyone provide a substantive critique of 8 or 9 and explain why they don't care for them.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Listening to many of the UK comments at the golf club Chambers Bay is a big thumbs down whilst Whistling Straights was a very big thumbs up,almost universaly everyone was loving WS.
For me the  CB negatives were the very steepness of some slopes, the holing of the shot for par off the hill, was pretty windmill-clowns mouth, the 12th green is another big minus for me to see a ball swirling round like a pinball and the man have a putt that he then putts off the green to get it to rollback and stop, then the chap that had a putt to tie on the 18th from 40 ft then he misses about 30 feet wide, lets be honest its Mickey Mouse. I did not like the grey sand but that was not the deal breaker. Lots of good bits though about CB and with a few bits sorted I am sure it could be vastly improved. I said in another post The US Open wont be played on CBas it is. DPs comments are pretty fair IMO.

[Richard Choi]

Adrian, you can make the exact same critique about the 7th green at Ballyneal and the short hole at Old Macdonald. There are sideboards and heaping movements galore on and around those greens. And those greens get a lot of love around here.

It may not be your cup of tee, but they are sure fun, especially on short holes.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian, you can make the exact same critique about the 7th green at Ballyneal and the short hole at Old Macdonald. There are sideboards and heaping movements galore on and around those greens. And those greens get a lot of love around here.

It may not be your cup of tee, but they are sure fun, especially on short holes.

Richard - I have not played those courses so I cant comment but being loved on GCA can often be a sign of minority opinion when you relate it to the rest of the world. I like quite a lot of quirk personally but its a case of degrees of and those CB bits I mention I think are too much and quite clearly there are lots of others that think that way too. For the Am a lot of it looked nice but most greens looked a mess with the squared patching up of the fescue. On the plus side there were some great looking holes.

[Garland Bayley]

Adrian, you can make the exact same critique about the 7th green at Ballyneal and the short hole at Old Macdonald. There are sideboards and heaping movements galore on and around those greens. And those greens get a lot of love around here.

It may not be your cup of tee, but they are sure fun, especially on short holes.

Richard - I have not played those courses so I cant comment but being loved on GCA can often be a sign of minority opinion when you relate it to the rest of the world. I like quite a lot of quirk personally but its a case of degrees of and those CB bits I mention I think are too much and quite clearly there are lots of others that think that way too. For the Am a lot of it looked nice but most greens looked a mess with the squared patching up of the fescue. On the plus side there were some great looking holes.

Adrian,

I have to pull a Mucci on you. Have you played the course? If not, then Pat and I respectively submit that you know not of what you speak.

[Garland Bayley]

Has Dottie played the course?

Pat Mucci

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian, you can make the exact same critique about the 7th green at Ballyneal and the short hole at Old Macdonald. There are sideboards and heaping movements galore on and around those greens. And those greens get a lot of love around here.

It may not be your cup of tee, but they are sure fun, especially on short holes.

Richard - I have not played those courses so I cant comment but being loved on GCA can often be a sign of minority opinion when you relate it to the rest of the world. I like quite a lot of quirk personally but its a case of degrees of and those CB bits I mention I think are too much and quite clearly there are lots of others that think that way too. For the Am a lot of it looked nice but most greens looked a mess with the squared patching up of the fescue. On the plus side there were some great looking holes.

Adrian,

I have to pull a Mucci on you. Have you played the course? If not, then Pat and I respectively submit that you know not of what you speak.

I dont need to have played or seen CB I can see from TV the points I consider to be the problem. I am not familiar with Old MacDonald yet (waiting for the photo tour) or Ballyneal. So I dont recognise the Mucci :O)

[Rory Connaughton]

Her thoughts on the elevation changes suggest that she hasn't seen too many links courses.  Some pretty big elevation changes on the north and west coasts of Ireland.

I was in the clubhouse at Enniscrone watching on Sky and the members there were amazed that such a course existed in the US. They were very enthusiastic about the "look".

[Garland Bayley]

Listening to many of the UK comments at the golf club Chambers Bay is a big thumbs down whilst Whistling Straights was a very big thumbs up,almost universaly everyone was loving WS.
For me the  CB negatives were the very steepness of some slopes, the holing of the shot for par off the hill, was pretty windmill-clowns mouth, the 12th green is another big minus for me to see a ball swirling round like a pinball and the man have a putt that he then putts off the green to get it to rollback and stop, then the chap that had a putt to tie on the 18th from 40 ft then he misses about 30 feet wide, lets be honest its Mickey Mouse. I did not like the grey sand but that was not the deal breaker. Lots of good bits though about CB and with a few bits sorted I am sure it could be vastly improved. I said in another post The US Open wont be played on CBas it is. DPs comments are pretty fair IMO.

If I didn't know you were referring to Chambers Bay, I would think you were talking about the work of Scotsman David Kidd at Tetherow and St. Andrews.

[Tim Leahy]

So, Tim, you believe TOC and other British Open courses should have windmill and clown's mouth?

Interesting...

I have never seen putts and shots like those mentioned in Adrian's post on British Open courses, but even if there were, the ground game is part of that major and is fine there. In the US the Open should be about classic American courses that involve dart like shot making.

[Jim Sweeney]

Perhaps Ms. Pepper needs to be reminded that CB is a faux links course, constructed in an old quarry. Even so, do all limks courses have to be the same- a flat as St. Andrews, say? I just do not understand.

Complaining about the pace of play in a practice round is a silly. I do not know what the pace was like in the tournament proper. I've played in quite a few practice rounds and taking 1/2 to 11/2 hours more than in anchampionship round is normal. All the players understand and as long as everyone gets to see all the course (more than enough time budgeted for that), who cares?

M. Davis addressed the the firmness issue, and he also addressed the spectating issue. The expectation is for more grandstands and other places where fans will camp out for the day. I believe there were four people cared for by medical during the Am. But there will be 50k fans per day for the Open, so it is a big concern, one the USGA is already working on.

Richard Choy: Why? MAybe the US Open should be (partly) about exposure to various types of architecture around the country.

[Anthony Fowler]

the 12th green is another big minus for me to see a ball swirling round like a pinball and the man have a putt that he then putts off the green to get it to rollback and stop

Adrian, I can't agree with you here.  This was a lot of fun to watch.  What's wrong with forcing the player to get creative once in a while?  If the backstop hadn't been there, you might say that the green is unfair because he couldn't stop the ball close to the hole.  I thought it was a rare but special occurrence to see strategy come into play after both players were already on the green.  Uihlein made a mistake to leave himself above the hole, but the architect gave him a chance to recover.  He was creative enough to see the option and he executed it perfectly.  I don't see anything Mickey Mouse about that, but perhaps it's a fine line.   

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Richard I agree with your rebuttal to Dotties weak thoughts. However CB does not pretend to be on links land no more than WS does. So the par 3 shot holds little water for me.

[Evan_Green]

This seems to be a relevant article to this topic:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/aug/30/usga-pleased-with-chambers-bay-after-amateur/

According to this the USGA was pleased with Chambers as a venue, and have a list of tweaks to make for '15

[Adrian_Stiff]

the 12th green is another big minus for me to see a ball swirling round like a pinball and the man have a putt that he then putts off the green to get it to rollback and stop

Adrian, I can't agree with you here.  This was a lot of fun to watch.  What's wrong with forcing the player to get creative once in a while?  If the backstop hadn't been there, you might say that the green is unfair because he couldn't stop the ball close to the hole.  I thought it was a rare but special occurrence to see strategy come into play after both players were already on the green.  Uihlein made a mistake to leave himself above the hole, but the architect gave him a chance to recover.  He was creative enough to see the option and he executed it perfectly.  I don't see anything Mickey Mouse about that, but perhaps it's a fine line.   

Anthony you just nailed it! It is fun as well to watch someone take mutiple shots in a bunker, it is fun to see a hole in one, this is the US Open, watching pinball aint golf.... Uhlien made a mistake with his 300 yard drive!!!!!! leaving in on the wrong section of the green!!! I don't think the 12th green complex is a fine line, thats is a full MM. I don't think the world wants golf course greens like that, but yes some people will enjoy them.