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Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Courses with the fewest par 4s
« on: September 08, 2010, 03:59:41 AM »
Elie with 16 and the Old Course with 14 are well known for having more than the customary 12 par 4s, but what about courses with very few par 4s?

RTJII has designed the Castle course at Bro Hof (Sweden) with 6 par 3s, 6 par 4s and 6 par 5s. The stretch of holes from the 9th-13th have holes with the following par: 5 5 3 3 5.

Is it something that GCAs try to avoid or would you be comfortable designing a course with more par 3s and par 5s that is usual? Also, would you try to avoid having a stretch of 5-6 holes (such as the example above) without a par 4?

Personally, I think it's rather refreshing to deviate from the rigid 12 par 4s, 4 par 3s, and 4 par 5s template.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2010, 04:16:02 AM »
The Berkshire (Red) has six holes of each par.

The par fours come at 4, 6, 8, 11, 12 and 14.

EDIT - Now I think of it, the course not only has six of each par in total, it has three of each on each nine!
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 08:51:20 AM by Scott Warren »

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2010, 05:07:24 AM »
Donal

An 18 hole public course near to my home has three P4's, one P5 and the rest P3's = Russell Vale.

Built on the side of a hill and tricky greens it plays above it's Par of 59.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2010, 08:01:29 AM »
University Ridge near Madison, WI (RTJ Jr.) has eight par 4s, five par 5s, and five par 3s. The front nine has three of each.


Tim Bert

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Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2010, 08:33:36 AM »
I know that Pacific Dunes has almost the normal number of par 4s in total but I'd love to know how many non-executive courses out there have as few as two par 4s on one of the nines.

PCCraig

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Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2010, 09:05:02 AM »
I'm assuming that the thread title means courses with a par of 70 or above with the fewest par-4s.

Lawsonia Links goes through a stretch of 6 holes with no par-4, #9 through #14 goes Par 5, 3, 5, 3, 5, 3. There are only 8 par 4s, but 5 par 5s and 5 par 3s to bring the par to 72.

The scorecard:

http://wsga.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/wsga9/event/wsga931/course/lawsonialinkscourse/actual.htm
H.P.S.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2010, 10:26:25 AM »
I'm assuming that the thread title means courses with a par of 70 or above with the fewest par-4s.

Lawsonia Links goes through a stretch of 6 holes with no par-4, #9 through #14 goes Par 5, 3, 5, 3, 5, 3. There are only 8 par 4s, but 5 par 5s and 5 par 3s to bring the par to 72.

The scorecard:

http://wsga.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/wsga9/event/wsga931/course/lawsonialinkscourse/actual.htm

Yes Pat, well almost. I would exclude executive courses, short-hole courses and the like. As for par, I wouldn't limit it to 70 as there are a lot of high quality courses around with pars of 68 or even 66.

The topic is a bit fluffy I guess.

Bill Spence

Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2010, 10:40:55 AM »
If I recall correctly, the Old Course at the Homestead has 6 par 4s, 6 par 3s and 6 par 5s.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2010, 11:31:09 AM »
Painswick has nine,  along with 7 par 3's and 2 par 5's, par 67.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2010, 11:34:07 AM »
Idlewild CC in Flossmoor, Il. is an older course (circa 1908) with 8 par 4's, 5 par 5's and 5 par 3's.  Not very long but a lot of fun before it got overtreed and the greens were permitted to shrink.  Still a nice place to play but it has suffered.  Years ago its 6th green was very interesting.  A downhill par 3 of 175 - 200 yards to a green with a small plateau section on the left sloping into a punchbowl on the right.  Amateur changes plus some mowing issues has weakened it considerably.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2010, 11:35:56 AM »
Of course the good 68 and 69 courses tend to be light on par fives and full of healthy length par 4......think Rye and Swinley Forest.
Cave Nil Vino

Jeff Shelman

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Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2010, 11:39:25 AM »
Town and Country Club in St. Paul, MN (which dates back to the late 1800s) has a very unique back nine in which there are only two par 4s and none after 13.

The par goes
435 435 553

Yes, three par 5s in a row and then finish with a par 3.

From 5-10 you play six par 4s in a row and then you only play one more.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2010, 11:39:26 AM »
See the threads on 666 courses.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2010, 11:40:26 AM »
Personally, I think par-4 holes are the backbone of a course, and I wouldn't want to build a course that only had six or eight of them.

However, whenever I've tried to think how to make a course that would be exciting for a professional tournament, I keep coming back to having more par-3's and par-5's.  The extra par-5's would be because I want the players to hit long clubs into the greens, and no par-4 at any length does that to the pros.  So my 540-yard holes would be reachable in two, but I think you'd have to call them par-5's, and then you'd have fewer par-4's.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2010, 11:49:40 AM »
Tom,

Is there a developer on earth who would let you build a course chock full of half-par holes and just give it a total par (no individual hole pars), leaving the player to decide how many shots he wants to allocate to each hole?

I'd love to see that, with lots of 230 to 250-yard holes and also an abundance of holes in the 460 to 490-yard range, with the conditions of the day perhaps changing what "par" a golfer would allocate to them.

TEPaul

Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2010, 12:36:59 PM »
"Personally, I think par-4 holes are the backbone of a course, and I wouldn't want to build a course that only had six or eight of them.

However, whenever I've tried to think how to make a course that would be exciting for a professional tournament, I keep coming back to having more par-3's and par-5's.  The extra par-5's would be because I want the players to hit long clubs into the greens, and no par-4 at any length does that to the pros.  So my 540-yard holes would be reachable in two, but I think you'd have to call them par-5's, and then you'd have fewer par-4's."



TomD:

For some years now I've felt that some courses can very easily do both and for basically no cost. They can do it simply by two scorecards that call some of the same holes different pars. The ones that can do it best, in my opinion, are the likes of NGLA with it's original par 73, or GCGC or Maidstone with it's par 72 and #15 and #16 being sort of half pars anyway.

Those three courses are good examples of the club being able to just create a par 70 course for all of them for the crack player and they can do it without doing anything to the golf course itself, just the scorecard. Think about it.

I finally got my club to create a championship card for the good player calling our #18 a par 4 and the course a par 70. For the rest we still have the par 71 course with #18 a par 5.

One might even call this "par skewing" because players may actually try to play those holes differently even if nothing is actually done to them other than designating them a different par on the card.

And some years ago I strongly recommended what Scott Warren just said---eg just have a single gross score course par and no hole pars and let players just play the holes the best way they think they should strategically with no hole par consideration to influence them.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 12:39:59 PM by TEPaul »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2010, 12:40:27 PM »
Why not a card with no par figures, but the scratch, and bogey ratings to one decimal point listed for each hole? Do you think that would cause a run of changes that would cause rating inflation?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2010, 12:48:47 PM »
I wish the concept of par as a test was never invented.  It is a useless measure and totally unrealistic for damn near everybody.  If we must have a number assigned to each hole Iwluld be in favour of a very strict par (it gets the freaks to shut up) and a separate bogey card for regular joe - probably 7-10 shots higher than par.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2010, 04:34:58 PM »
Crail??  Certainly the back 9 at Balcomie only has 2 but think the front 9 has a lot from memory.  Def less than 10 overall.
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2010, 04:49:53 PM »
Simon,

Crail Balcomie has two-shotters at 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 15 and 17 - 9 in total.

TEPaul

Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2010, 10:04:11 AM »
"I wish the concept of par as a test was never invented.  It is a useless measure and totally unrealistic for damn near everybody.  If we must have a number assigned to each hole Iwluld be in favour of a very strict par (it gets the freaks to shut up) and a separate bogey card for regular joe - probably 7-10 shots higher than par."


Golf actually has such a thing---in a way. It's the Slope system and its formula. Par is a refection of the so-called "scratch" golfer compared to Slope's theoretical  "Bogey Golfer" (a 17-22 handicapper). Both are the two numerical refections from which Slope is calculated.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2010, 10:11:47 AM »
Hillwood CC in Nashville (Dick Wilson, 1953) also has 5 par 5's and 5 par 3's.

Bill Satterfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2010, 09:27:30 PM »
Soldier Hollow outside of Park City, UT has two Gene Bates designed courses; the Gold and Silver.  The Silver course is over 7300 yards and features six par 5s, six par 4s, and six par 3s.  The Gold course is setup more traditionally and is the course that hosts all tournaments.  The Silver course is easier and is located on easier terrain.  For a 36 hole facility I think it is a decent concept.

Andrew Mitchell

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Re: Courses with the fewest par 4s
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2010, 03:34:06 AM »
Shipley GC in West Yorkshire, a MacKenzie design, has only two par 4s on the front nine with 4 par 5s and 3 3s.

There are 5 par 4s on the back 9 to give a total of 7. Par is 71.

Mark Rowlinson's excellent photo essay is here http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40136.0/
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

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