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Bruce Wellmon

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Ross Historians. I have a Question for you.
« on: September 03, 2010, 09:19:36 AM »
Question #1: McGovern was an associate of Ross.
                   What happened to McGovern after Ross' death? Did he open his own firm?
Question #2: Are there any "unfinished" or not built Ross designs?

There is a previous thread "JB McGovern."
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,18493.0/

Chris Buie

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Re: Ross Historians. I have a Question for you.
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2010, 04:25:51 PM »
Nobody replying to Bruce's question?  Well, I'll just say the most relevant info I know is that Raleigh CC was unfinished when Ross passed away.  McGovern and Ellis Maples saw the project through to completion.  Ross did visit the site several times. 
I only know a little bit about Mr. McGovern.  It would be interesting to hear that story.  I have always found Frank Maples an interesting and very underrated figure in the Ross circle.  He had a lot more to do with Pinehurst and in particular #2 than he is given credit for.  He was right there with Ross for about 4 decades.
Maples only designed one course: Montevideo Park.  A 500 acre development adjacent to Pinehurst.  Unfortunately it was not built because of the depression.  The only thing that survived that project was the entrance - which is still there.

Harwell Palmer

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Re: Ross Historians. I have a Question for you.
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2010, 05:00:04 PM »
<<((FRANK....Maples only designed one course: Montevideo Park.  A 500 acre development adjacent to Pinehurst.  Unfortunately it was not built because of the depression.  The only thing that survived that project was the entrance - which is still there.>>

Chris-
Where is this entrance?
Ellis Dan's father?  Frank...related? How?


Chris Buie

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Re: Ross Historians. I have a Question for you.
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2010, 05:58:40 PM »
Harwell, it is on Poplar St. in Aberdeen.  The property stretched out toward where the Pit is today.  There was actually another course that was supposed to be built on that property in the 60's.  It was called Old Yadkin and was to be designed by one of Richard Tufts sons.  The financing didn't quite come together for that project.
Richard Tufts was the grandson of the founder of Pinehurst and ran it for decades.  He was also president of the USGA.  One of the reasons the USGA did not come to Pinehurst for a long time was because Richard thought it would be bad form considering his involvement with them.  He did host the PGA and the Ryder Cup though.
Frank was the father of Ellis and the grandfather of Dan.  He and Ross were born around the same time and passed away around the same time.  They were symbiotic.  I don't think Frank's shaping of #2 is properly understood.  Most people don't realize how involved Ross himself was with turf either.  Those two spent years and years experimenting with that.  Ross was right down in it with superintendent Maples.
Can you believe that this is what Pinehurst looked like in 1901 right before Ross and Maples started working their magic?

If you are interested, the best book about the history of the area is by Richard Mandell.  It would be a fascinating read for anybody seriously interested in golf actually.
http://www.amazon.com/Pinehurst-~-Home-American-Golf/dp/0979483603

Harwell Palmer

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Re: Ross Historians. I have a Question for you.
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2010, 10:33:08 PM »
Thanks much for all of the info!

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: Ross Historians. I have a Question for you.
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2010, 11:08:43 AM »
This will explain my question.


http://www.gaffneyledger.com/news/2010-09-01/Local_News/TEE_IT_UP.html

TEE IT UP
A mystery: Who inspired Gaffney Country Club?
By TIM GULLA Ledger Staff Writer tim@gaffneyledger.com
This 1950 sketch of a 9-hole golf course in Gaffney can be found in the Tufts Archives in Pinehurst, N.C., listed among the hundreds of courses that Donald Ross had a hand in. Mention the name Donald Ross to a golfer and most will know who you’re talking about.

A prolific golf course architect in his day, Donald Ross’ name is attached to some of the most prominent courses in the country, such as Pinehurst No. 2 in Pinehurst, N.C.

No matter the location, however, a course designed by Ross raises its cachet, especially among golfers with a sense of history.

Peruse the Tufts Archives in Pinehurst, where Ross’ life and history is preserved, and you’ll find a list of about 400 golf courses that Ross either designed, or redesigned, during his career.

Included among those archives is a 1950 topographic map and sketch, drawn on behalf of the Gaffney Development Corporation, for a 9- hole golf course in Gaffney. Interestingly enough, the sketched course is located on the exact site of Gaffney Country Club.

Some say they can see Donald Ross, a famed golf course architect, in Gaffney Country Club's turtleback greens. The real architect, however, isn't known. Spotted in the archives by local resident Bruce Wellmon, the find of this sketch touched off a “History Detectives”-like quest with a seemingly simple question.

Is Gaffney Country Club a Donald Ross’ course?

The short answer is: It’s doubtful, though Ross’ work may have served as some inspiration.

The 1950 sketch is not signed by Ross but by golf course architect J.B. McGovern. When The Gaffney Ledger sent some current photographs of the layout, as well as an undated aerial photograph from around the time of course construction, to a book author who has written about Ross, the reply was on the pessimistic side.

“The construction looks very circular, very mechanical,” the book author said in reference to the 1950sera aerial shots of the course. But, the author hedged, “It’s very hard to know what the original shapes looked like unless I’m seeing it myself.”

There’s other evidence that leads to doubt.

The 1950 sketch of the course found in the archives does not match the Gaffney County Club layout that members now enjoy, though there are some similarities.

And perhaps the strongest evidence yet comes from a simple fact. Ross died in 1948, two years before the sketch was drawn.

While it remains unclear how J.B. McGovern came to draw a sketch for the Gaffney Development Company, it’s not surprising to see his name attached to the work. McGovern worked for Ross and carried on several projects after Ross’ death before making his own mark on the game.

And since he worked so closely with Ross, an official at the Tufts Archives relayed, it’s logical that McGovern’s work would look similar.

The sketch in the archives is labeled a “Third Preliminary Sketch,” meaning there are at least two other sketches of the then-proposed course in Gaffney. No others can be found in the archives, though.

Ross still was alive when fundraising began to build the course as the Gaffney Development Company was selling shares for $25 each. Such fundraising was ongoing in 1947, according to a copy of one such stock certificate.

At Gaffney Country Club the course history is a little fuzzy.

Head professional Chris Wood, who has worked there for 20 years, said there are few records about the early days of the club, though several photographs of the course construction do hang on the walls there.

“Who did it, I do not know,” Wood said in reference to the course’s architect.

Several golf courserelated Web sites list the course’s designer as Bert Yancey. While professional golfer Bert Yancey once served as a pro at the club, he wasn’t born until 1938 and would have been only 12 years old about the time construction began.

Wylie Hamrick, who joined the club in the 1950s after returning to Gaffney from school, recalled that the course opened with just three holes, which members would play from different tee boxes multiple times to complete a round of golf. Additional holes were added in stages during ensuing years to complete the nine-hole layout, he said.

“I don’t believe there was ever a contract with a golf course builder who actually built the course,” Hamrick said.

Even if Ross didn’t have a hand in the course, however, some say his spirit can be felt there, especially on the course’s sloping, turtle-back greens, and closelymowed areas that make it a challenge.

“There’s a buddy of mine, he’s always called it a miniature Pinehurst No. 2,” offered Wood. “All the greens are built like upside-down saucers, just like his (Ross’) designs are, especially Pinehurst No. 2.”

Such spirit can also be found in club members, who share a passion for the game.

Regardless of its roots, Hamrick said, “It is a fun golf course to play.”



TEPaul

Re: Ross Historians. I have a Question for you.
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2010, 06:39:44 PM »
Bruce Wellmon:

I just read through the five year old thread on JB McGovern you linked into your first post on this thread.There is some very interesting stuff on there even though there is far too much arguing back and forth on it with Tom MacWood.

But the posts that Brad Klein and Aronimink's super, John Goesslin, put on there are very interesting. And then in the beginning of that thread there is some funny satirical stuff back and forth by Wayne Morrison and a few others about a hypothetical boxing match in a ring between Flynn's daughter, Connie Lagerman and McGovern's daughter.

I thought I put some stuff on this website about McGovern's daughter and Ross but it wasn't on that thread you linked entitled J.B. McGovern that MacWood started in 2005.

So, I'm going to put it on this thread because for a number of reasons I think John Goesslin would get a kick out of it.

One irony is Wayne Morrison was talking about her on that other thread but he never named her. Her name is Mrs Morrison  :o and she lives in Norristown. She was the one who always claimed her father was the one who really designed and oversaw that little course in Norristown and there is a very interesting article about it in Ron Prichard's files and in mine about how it had some really interesting bunkers that were in those multi-sets of 2s and 3s and of course it was done before Aronimink!!

The other interesting thing about that little course in Norristown is it's where Tom Fazio grew up since he came from Norristown!

The other interesting thing is I found when talking with Mrs Morrison on the phone one time that the original greenskeeper of Aronimink who was there when Ross and McGovern were building the course lived in the old farmhouse that John Goesslin's office is in and the greenkeeper's daughter was Mrs Morrison's best friend when they were little girls. Mrs Morrison said she practically lived there she was there so much. And then she launched into a remarkable description of Donald Ross. She said he was there a lot and that he was one of her favorite men she ever knew; that he was like her favorite uncle and that he really was kind of avuncular and he really did hook his thumbs into his vest all the time like you see in a few photos of him.

I just think it is so interesting to hear those kinds of really detailed things about a man from so long ago that the likes of Mrs Morrison knew so well way back then. She said one of the reasons he was around Philly a lot is because his daughter Lillian lived above his Wynnewood office when she first got married.

That was the office J.B. McGovern ran for him.

So, JohnG, when you go into your office you should know that Donald Ross was probably in there a whole lot. Pretty cool when you think about him. If you actually feel his presence in there, make sure to say Hi to him for me. You might even hear the laughter of a couple of little girls playing in the next room and maybe you'll catch a glimpse of him standing in the doorway with his thumbs hooked in his vest watching them with that avuncular smile of his! ;)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 06:53:49 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Ross Historians. I have a Question for you.
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2010, 09:56:44 PM »
Unlike Walter Hatch, Ross's other associate, who retired when Ross retired, McGovern did design a few courses after Ross retired. By the way there is evidence that both Hatch and McGovern should probably get more credit for some courses credited to Ross, mostly nine hole golf courses.

Regarding your second question I'm guessing there were some unexecuted courses, but that is only a guess. One course that was delayed, and eventually built is George Wright GC in Boston. Ross designed it to be a high profile municipal course in the late 20s, but for whatever reason they decided not to fund it. Eventually in the late 30s they got the money (WPA?), and the course was built. It was fairly difficult site and a very expensive project. The course was built by Walter Irving Johnson, Ross's fabulous draftsman. To my knowledge it was the only golf course Johnson worked on in the field.

TEPaul

Re: Ross Historians. I have a Question for you.
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2010, 10:21:16 PM »
Overbrook is McGovern's only solo in Philadelphia and it generally doesn't get much love around here as a good course but I've always liked it.

As Mike Sweeney mentioned it has always had some of the best players in the section (there's the old adage around here that it's not much easier to win the Overbrook Club championship than the Philadelphia Amateur Championship). The property is tight, there are a  number of holes that turn one way when the slope in the DZ goes the other way; the par 3s are pretty much of the same length and the 16th is in an area that most architects would probably prefer not to find themselves with a golf hole.

Generally speaking though it does have a lot of that common Ross characteristic on rolling topography of a lot of holes that are high tees, valleys and high green sites.

The history of the property is pretty interesting too in that before Overbrook GC moved there the property had been the estate of Mr and Mrs. Van
Horn Ely, Mrs Ely being the daughter of Clarence Geist, the Seaview and Boca Raton builder and owner who lived across the street in a massive estate that is now Notre Dame Girls school. The estate was given by Geist to Mr and Mrs Ely as a wedding present. The rather commodious clubhouse was young Mr and Mrs Ely's house, and Overbrook actually took the left wing off of it perhaps to make enough room for the 10th tee at the top of the hill.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 10:40:22 PM by TEPaul »

Chris Buie

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Re: Ross Historians. I have a Question for you.
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2010, 01:43:36 PM »
I am posting these images of Gaffney C.C. on Bruce's behalf.  Audrey Moriarty from the Tuft's Archives was kind enough to send those to him and to give her permission to post on GCA.
She did not mention it but I will take the liberty of saying that donations are important to keeping this singular place going.  It is something that definitely needs to be preserved for future generations.  
http://www.tuftsarchives.org/fund-development/





« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 01:48:47 PM by Chris Buie »

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: Ross Historians. I have a Question for you.
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2010, 02:12:49 PM »
Thanks for posting the sketches Chris.

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