[Simon Holt]

I had a recent conversation with Mark in which I stated that I hold no real value to lists beyond say the top 20.  Very rough number but I think it is possible to bang out criteria and pretty much come to a consensus over that number.  20-100 will no doubt be all good courses, some great  , but personal opinion will devide the masses.

As an exercise who is game to list in order the courses that they see as the Top 10 in Scotland?  No pulling out a course for left field just for shock factor but your honest hand on heart Top 10 in Scotland.  I am sceptical that we would even get 10 but it might be a good laugh and stimulate some good debate.  I promise to put all bias towards North Berwick aside and not list it as number 1 as long as Mr. Gray does the same with Cruden Bay!

[Simon Holt]

PS.  That top100 site is a cool concept but some of the comments on it KILL me!!!

[Scott Warren]

Simon, those "user reviews" are the second easiest way to get angry on the internet after reading the comments on the bottom of Daily Mail stories

Some of the Ren Club comments... I can see why they kill you!

[BCrosby]

I think there are 14.7 great golf courses in Scotland. No more, no less.

Bob

[Simon Holt]

Yep.  I didnt know it was a guise for www.ihaveanaxetogrindaboutprivateclubs.com

I am working on my Top 10 but can only scribble down 6 before my head starts to hurt!!

So far, with no real criteria other than I left thinking 'this course is no quite as good as X, but marginally better in my mind than Y'

1. Muirfield
2.Turnberry
3.North Berwick
4.Carnoustie
5.TOC
6.Royal Dornoch


My biggest concerns are conditioning across the board and playability (would I get board if I played every day??).  History does not come in to it.  I grew up here so I am almost immune.  I have to admit to imagining putts to win the Open at 4 of these courses though!!

[Mark Pearce]

Muirfield
TOC
Royal Dornoch
Prestwick
Carnoustie
Turnberry
NBWL


Then my head starts to hurt, too.  I haven't played Loch Lomond (bloody exclusive US style clubs  ) or Castle Stuart (bloody Johnny Come Lately CCFAD rip offs  ) so can't comment on whether they would make my top 10.  I've enjoyed Lundin, Leven, Ladybank and loads of others more than Troon.  I haven't played Kingsbarns but a wonder round suggests it wouldn't get in ahead of a host of clubs like those just mentioned.  So, with several unplayed being excluded my 8-10 might be Lundin, Elie and Cruden Bay but I agree it's getting tricky at that stage.  That's not to say that any of those aren't lovely courses but they probably don't qualify as "great" and they don't scream for inclusion in a top 10 list.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Thus does it not all go to prove that it is a pointless exercise.

As for 14.7 you have to love it.

The next stage is to put your ten courses in order. Again what does it prove and will you retain this list next week after you have had the opportunity to play them again. The best courses are not necessary the top ten courses, so lists IMHO are just a waste of time. 

As for the list, I do not like Turnberry and do not rate Dornoch as a top 10 course, yet clearly others do.

Melvyn

[Sean_A]

I had a recent conversation with Mark in which I stated that I hold no real value to lists beyond say the top 20.  Very rough number but I think it is possible to bang out criteria and pretty much come to a consensus over that number.  20-100 will no doubt be all good courses, some great  , but personal opinion will devide the masses.

As an exercise who is game to list in order the courses that they see as the Top 10 in Scotland?  No pulling out a course for left field just for shock factor but your honest hand on heart Top 10 in Scotland.  I am sceptical that we would even get 10 but it might be a good laugh and stimulate some good debate.  I promise to put all bias towards North Berwick aside and not list it as number 1 as long as Mr. Gray does the same with Cruden Bay!

Simon

I won't do a top 10, but I will mention the courses which I think are in for a shout as great or in some way very special that would merit a recommendation to detour over night and play at the expense of another course.  But first, I would mention Prestwick as the one course in Scotland that I would feel very comfortable recommending as the centre-piece of a holiday - PRESTWICK.

For me - no brainers, but a short list

North Berwick
Cruden Bay
Dornoch
Royal Aberdeen
TOC
Brora

Obvious championship courses even if they don't really do much for me - others want to see them and I can understand if folks think they are great.

Carnoustie
Troon
Turnberry
Muirfield

Other second tier championship courses that I think are in with a shout, but I am not totally convinced

Western Gailes
Kingsbarns
The New Course
Gleneagles Kings
Luffness

Not played

Skibo
Dundonald
Loch Lomond
Castle Stuart
Archerfield (x 2)
Elie
Renaissance
St Andrews Castle
Rosemount

Others which I have time for and would return if in area, but would not blankly recommend others go out their way to see

Machrihanish
Dunbar

Courses I have some time for, but work best as fillers for trips rather than feature courses (I am not overly interrsted in returning)

Nairn
Gullane #1
Musselburgh
Southerness

Courses which may afford SPECIAL MERIT - IE I really want to see them

Machrie
Askernish

I guess thats 33 courses and tehre are likely a few others out there.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

I did, of course, forget Renaissance (age really is catching up with me!).  It's in my Top 10.  So that just leaves two to add.  Elie and Cruden Bay.  Of course it could be Balcomie and Panmure tomorrow.

[David Lott]

Old Course
New Course
Edens (before most recent "renovation")
Auchterader
Gleneagles Kings
Machrihanish
Lundin
Elie
Crail Balcomie
North Berwick
Montrose
Carnoustie
Ladybank
Scotscraig

Each of these  courses I played at least twice one summer a while ago. Each provided a "great" day of golf. Something I remember. Something I hope to do again. Probably only a few would be on most lists of "great" courses. Which shows that you can have a fine day of golf in a lot of forms. Confining yourself to something acknowledged "great" in an architectural sense is going to diminish your golfing pleasure.

It's easy to see that most of my time was spent in east central. Imagine what I missed!

[Andrew Summerell]

I think there are 14.7 great golf courses in Scotland. No more, no less.

Bob

Before we make jokes, can we please read the entire thread. 

[Cristian]

Great courses to me are courses where you can have a lot of fun. Courses like Lundin are being described as 'charming' and 'fun' but not as 'great'. What other criteria then length determine whether a course is great or not?

Lundin (as an example) provides startegic tee-shots truly fast&firm playing surface interesting slopes and humps on fairways and greens and a very welcoming clubhouse and membership as a bonus.

To somebody who is interested in Championship golf, ticking off the scottish World top 100 courses, or walking The Open fairways Lundin would not be 'great'.

To me courses like Lundin are great, and yes I would (and have) travel(ed) to enjoy it!

There's more great courses than we think!

[Melvyn Morrow]

I am attacked for many reason but mainly my belief that golf is a walking and thinking game which requires no outside aids of any sort, yet it’s like water on a ducks back (it has little real effect).

I believe my case if further enhanced when we have topics that question if there are many if any great courses in Scotland. The answer IHMO is yes and nearly all can be described as great. That is if we define great as challenging and fun, leaving a sense of satisfaction and inner contentment with one’s game.

The problem is this requirement to have Championship Courses, yet we have enough course to challenge even the best, if only we would take control of this distance cancer that is slowly creeping over all our courses requiring much surgery to what has already proved to be great courses. But if our Surgeons will not operate on what is currently an easy operation, then the prognoses is not good for golf.

We have comments questioning if Scotland has any great courses – hell guys we had courses here well before the modern birth of the game. Those 30 or so courses exploded to 1,500 then 2,500 by the turn of the 20th Century. All the great courses were in Scotland, they never left, they are still here today, it’s the equipment that has changed perhaps dulling some courses, killing off others, but that does not take the greatness from them – they perform to their design specification, the problem is that our Governing Bodies seem to think it’s better to change the courses at the cost of tens of thousands of £ ($) rather than change the ball at a cost of  a few pounds.

How can we continue to put our faith in these faceless individuals who would rather see the courses modified when the problem in clearly there in the shape of the ball which cost peanuts.

Scotland, as has been said has many a great course, you just need to use the equipment they were designed for in the first place. Remember that these courses where called sporty perhaps being the reason golf exploded worldwide, pity the powers that be can’t see the problem or is it they can’t see the wood for the trees.

In case you forget, Scotland have many a great course, but we are back at that definition of great, hence why I think Cristian is right.

If only The R&A would let us play with the right equipment we may suddenly find that we all have many great courses – it’s just a question of fuelling one’s race car with the right fuel or rolling back the ball.

Get that right and are you in for some fun.   

Melvyn

[Tom_Doak]

Donal:

My intent was not to try and approach a "World Top 500" or anything close to it, just to find a less controversial way to repackage The Confidential Guide if I ever wanted to do it, by focusing only on the courses I would recommend seeing.  [It would be a lot easier to deal with Greg Norman or Jack Nicklaus on that basis, as I could include some of their work and say nothing about other bits.]

The problem with a "World Top 500" is just who would it be for?  There are a lot of unimaginative types who would think that list should include all 300 Jack Nicklaus courses [or alternatively, all 400 Donald Ross courses], because they have a narrow view of what's good in architecture and all of those courses fit their description.  Whereas my own list would focus on where you might find a great hole or cool feature you've never seen before ... for example, it would certainly include Painswick, even though I am sure that most people would not put that course in their top 1,000.

I have not counted up the entire list nor tried to figure out the percentages of courses in any given area that make the list.  40% is a high figure, but of course my sampling of courses is far from random ... for years I traveled on exactly this basis, going to check out any course which someone who sounded knowledgable would recommend.

Here was my list for Scotland (sorry no time to put it in order):

Highlands:  Brora, Royal Dornoch, Boat of Garten, Pitlochry, Nairn, Cruden Bay, Royal Aberdeen, Murcar

Midlands:  St. Andrews (Old and Eden), Kingsbarns, Crail, Elie, Lundin Links, Blairgowrie, Gleneagles (Kings and Queens), Carnoustie, Panmure, Kingarrock

East Lothian:  Musselburgh Old Links, Luffness New, Gullane 1-2-3, Muirfield, The Renaissance Club, North Berwick (West), The Glen

West Coast:  Western Gailes, Royal Troon, Prestwick, Turnberry (Ailsa), Loch Lomond, Shiskine, Machrihanish, Askernish


I realize that the cut-off point for this list is quite arbitrary and hard to distinguish.  Why Panmure and not Montrose?  Why did I leave out Lossiemouth [maybe just an error, there]?  Why not Kilspindie, which I've recommended here in the past?  All are fair questions; but on that basis, I suppose I could recommend nearly every course I've seen on some level or another. 

I guess my bottom line is that if someone was traveling from America to Scotland, I would tell them they weren't wasting their time with any of the above, instead of thinking they have "seen it all" just from playing the Open rota, and could move on to other destinations instead of ever going back.  Indeed, any of the sub-groups listed above would make for an excellent and varied golf trip, without all of the ridiculous racing around on narrow roads that most Americans do in order to see all the "greats" as fast as they can.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom Doak:  "Whereas my own list would focus on where you might find a great hole or cool feature you've never seen before ... for example, it would certainly include Painswick, even though I am sure that most people would not put that course in their top 1,000."

Tom, Painswick is #1 in a one course list!  "Most Fun Courses You Had No Idea Would Be That Much Fun!"

[Steve Salmen]

Bill,

I believe Elie would make that list also.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

I believe Elie would make that list also.

I agree Elie is a whole lot of fun, but those who have hiked the hills of Painswick think it's in a class by itself.

But Elie is close, good call!

[Bill_McBride]

Several on this thread have mentioned Lundin Links, and yes, it is a terrific course.  But what of Leven?  It's the other half of the original course, yet it's seldom mentioned.  Did Lundin get most of the good holes?  Are the "new" holes at Lundin better than the "new" holes at Leven? 

[Mark Pearce]

Bill,

Great question.  I played Leven for the first time this summer.  I have no excuse for not playing it earlier.  Quirk?  Check, blind tee shots (at times dangerously so, I've never heard the sound of unannounced balls land close to me so frequently in a round), twin fairways (cross the dune with your tee shot, or with your approach?).  Challenge?  Absolutely not least a finishing hole to match anything Carnoustie can throw at you.  Great greens?  Oh yes.  Possibly as good as any I have ever plyed in Scotland.  Big.  Probably as big as anywhere outside TOC, loads of movement and true.

On the downside, Leven isn't a pretty town and the views from the course reminded me of Seaton Carew.  But I loved it and will certainly go back next year.  I simply don't understand why Leven gets so litle love on here.  For me it is easily as good as Lundin, and I'ma fan of Lundin.

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:

I've never walked all of the current Leven course.  The holes that Macdonald borrowed from "Leven" are now the 16th and 17th on Lundin Links.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

I've never walked all of the current Leven course.  The holes that Macdonald borrowed from "Leven" are now the 16th and 17th on Lundin Links.

Are both those honored by the 17th at NGLA?  If not, which is and what about the other?

[Ulrich Mayring]

I played Leven with Mark and second everything he says. The greens are unbelievable, the next best thing if you can't get onto TOC.

Ulrich

[Marty Bonnar]

Leven's a cracking good course, and doesn't have the crap 'up the hill' holes that Lundie suffers with, but it does have the 16th and 17th which are possibly two of the dullest holes in all of Scotland. I still might take a membership there one of these days, mind you. Dead cheap and a ridiculous bargain for all that 'history'.
On a more political note, it's also time the two Leven town clubs stopped being such a bunch of spoilt brat children and joined together to create what would easily be one of the BEST clubs in Scotland. Small minded parochial eedjits totally piss me off.
FBD.

[Bill_McBride]

Leven's a cracking good course, and doesn't have the crap 'up the hill' holes that Lundie suffers with, but it does have the 16th and 17th which are possibly two of the dullest holes in all of Scotland. I still might take a membership there one of these days, mind you. Dead cheap and a ridiculous bargain for all that 'history'.
On a more political note, it's also time the two Leven town clubs stopped being such a bunch of spoilt brat children and joined together to create what would easily be one of the BEST clubs in Scotland. Small minded parochial eedjits totally piss me off.
FBD.

Nephew, would you be thinking of a 36-hole club, or some felicitous combination of the best of the holes?

It's interesting to note that they split into two clubs because they had something like 1700 members!!  How many today combined?

I really want to play Leven next time to Scotland!

Is there an annual event where the two clubs play the original course?

[Melvyn Morrow]

I was at Leven last month, as for the two clubs, perhaps the Grass is not always Greener on the other side of the wall.

As I said there are many great courses in Scotland, many still not mentioned, but for the moment I think we should keep them as our hidden little Gems.

Melvyn

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