[Melvyn Morrow]

OK so the word is Great but then let’s focus on the lesser known courses which are fun and enjoyable and after a long drive North is great to play. As we are only talking about Scotland I’ll start with a little 9 Hole course at the West end of Loch Tay called Killin Golf club Web Link http://www.killingolfclub.co.uk/
 


It’s a great little 9 hole course, certainly after spending all that time in a car, but would others call it great, well we are back to defining the words Great and ones frame of mind when playing said course.

There are many great little out of the way courses in Scotland, but then I suppose that also depends upon what you seek from your game.

Many years ago based myself at Crieff and travelled and played the whole area, I had one of the best 10 days of my life and to my surprise it hardly cost me that much re the Green Fees.

Melvyn

[Steve Wilson]

A well known golf writer of the recent past, it may have been Peter Dobereiner, opined that he didn't think there was a single "great" course in Scotland until he discovered Dornoch.  I'm going to try and find that article.  In the meantime I'll be in the bunker with my head down.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Steve

There you go about Scotland, or should I say the so called golf writer.  You can see why I am so unhappy with the game today and the quality of the new courses over the last 30-40 years.  The game has been raped by various alien introductions taking away the true identity of Golf leaving a shallow game which is willing sodomised each time a cart or distance aid is used. But do not worry its only my opinion and anyway many of the courses in Scotland date back to when the game was correctly played. Lets others read their books while we live the game by playing our old courses.

The point seems to be that if you can't hack it change it, make it soft for the modern players, lets ride rough shot over the spirit and heart of the traditional game. In doing so we have lost the magic of the game and allowed a weak set of players on our courses just for the purpose of taking their money - some have sold their soul to the Devil while others just don't give a sh#t.

But that’s life and while our Governing Bodies do little to preserve our traditions what do we really expect.

Still there are many great little courses in Scotland that I rate higher than Dornoch. Many Scots see that club as a Dollar bank playing the Ross card and tend to stay clear, but then what do we Scots know about golf or for that matter single malt.

Melvyn

[Kevin Pallier]

In other words, were you setting out to make a list of the best Scottish courses, how deep would you feel it was necessary to go to ensure everything worthy of mention was included?

10? 20? 50? 100?

How many inland courses would get onto such a list?

Scott

What's your definition of "great" ? and what would you include in it ?

I've seen about 50 odd Scottish courses and would probably say that I'd classify around 15-20 as meeting my definition of "great". That being - that I'd go out of my way to play them.

Inland ones's:
Loch Lomond
Gleneagles (Kings)
Gleneagles (Queens)
Blairgowrie (Rosemount)

[Tom_Doak]

I will not attempt to produce a definition of "great" ... we have already seen that some people's definitions are way more stringent than others'.

I did try over the past winter to compile a list of courses that I would recommend to others as worth taking the time to play.  I think it's about 500 courses worldwide, out of the 1,200 I've seen.  Anyway, I just looked up for Scotland and counted 36 courses that I would recommend.

[mike_beene]

can't quite put Carnoustie,Prestwick,Troon,Gullane or Western Gailes in,although the first 13 or 14 holes of W Gailes would make it,and Gullane is a personal favorite. to me it is TOC,Murfield,Kingsbarnes,North Berwick and maybe ,almost Turnberry.Never been up north so no opinion there.

[Cristian]

I will not attempt to produce a definition of "great" ... we have already seen that some people's definitions are way more stringent than others'.

I did try over the past winter to compile a list of courses that I would recommend to others as worth taking the time to play.  I think it's about 500 courses worldwide, out of the 1,200 I've seen.  Anyway, I just looked up for Scotland and counted 36 courses that I would recommend.

Just curious,
Did you also count the nr of 'greats' in England, Ireland, US, and rest of the world?

You would recommend almost 42% of courses you have seen, but then again you probably knew where you were going most of the time. Which country/area has the highest % of recommendables?

Don't know if you have worked these numbers out already, if not it's probably too much hassle, but if you have I'd be interested!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

So you would recommend 36 courses in Scotland, how many have you actually played in Scotland to come up with that number, 100. 200, 300, 400, 500? No trick question just trying to understand the percentage game.

Interesting point in talking about recommendations. There are many a course I would suggest to my friends, but would not do so on this site. That is until one gets to know the likes and dislikes of ones fellow golfers.
Yet we keep coming back to defining not just great but our own preferences which cloud the issues at times.

Then again we are listening to people who happily design golf courses on housing estates or on land not fit for purpose and we are expected to seriously consider their comments when clearly they set their standards at let’s call it questionable levels. It’s a question again of definitions, so the only way to get a basic consensus is to delve to the lowest common denominator – never a good starting point when discussing ones preferences.

Melvyn 

[Scott Warren]

Melvyn,

Then again we are listening to people who happily design golf courses on housing estates or on land not fit for purpose and we are expected to seriously consider their comments when clearly they set their standards at let’s call it questionable levels.

Who are you referring to in the above quote?

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Nobody will get to see all 30,000 courses in the world, so you unfortunately have to rely on the various magazine course ratings and word of mouth, etc. to whittle down your list of "must sees" to a more manageable number. I guess this is what Tom must have done, but even he would admit that he probably hasn't seen some courses that warrant a place in in a world top 500. Chances are, he's missed a few "greats" here and there.

Thankfully, there are still many quality courses out there that haven't been found out.

If I could give an example. Last year one of the Irish newspapers produced a list of the top 100 courss in Ireland. One of my favourite courses wasn't in the top 100, but I wasn't disappointed. If there are 100 courses better than my hidden gem, then Irish golfers are a lucky bunch indeed.

These lists are pretty useless in my opinion. All they do is encourage some less than great clubs to increase their green fees and boast about the 44th position they hold on a particular golf magazine's top 100 list. There is a plus side too. The lesser know quality courses will remain uncrowded and cheaper.

[Simon Holt]

I have always felt the word great is banded about a little too liberably when it comes to both golf courses and golfers too actually.  Thats not to be a killjoy but I just dont like to let people down with too high an expectation of a course.

I definitely say a place is worth visiting but leave it at that most of the time.  I do however say if a place has what a deem a great hole!  

A example here in East Lothian for me is Kilspindie.  Not a great course but a good one, worth a visit if you are in the area, but the 4th hole is one of the best short par 4s I have ever played.  Even that might not be considered great, but for me its a stand out hole on that particular course.

In years to come, when more people manage to play, I suspect the 9th hole here at Renaissance might get some coverage but time will tell.  

[Emil Weber]

Ulrich,

Which ten courses in Germany would you think about?

I think the differences are much bigger. For the best 50 courses or so in Scotland, there would probably be 1,2 maybe 3 courses equivalent to the top  50 or so in scotland, and not one course equivalent to the scottish top 20.

[Niall C]

Bill/Sean

As usual I was typing on the run which was why didn't mention any of the courses around Muirfiled which would have included the Gullane courses, Renaissance, Luffness, Longniddry, Kilspindie (Simon, comments noted) , Craigielaw and of course North Berwick.

As for recommending a course within a hundred miles that someone should detour to play, thats a difficult one. I suspect that I've named at least 20 or 30 courses that are within a hundred miles of each other so lets take an extreme and say that if I was recommending to someone who was going to be in Edinburgh that he should detour and go play Prestwick St Nich's. Am I seriously going to suggest that given how many great courses are closer ? Probably not but I would still say it is great and should be picked off at some point.

Niall

[Ross Tuddenham]

Would it be too simple an answer to say many, and in a very small area where almost all are very easily reachable.  Maybe the best 30,414 sq mi of golfing land. 

For comparison the state in the US most similar in size to Scotland with a degree of golfing relevance is south Carolina at 30000 sq mi.  If we look at population then Scotland has 5.1 million people.

So wherever this thread is going or whatever you consider to be a great course it is not debatable that Scotland has many more quality courses per capita or by area than anywhere else I could think of.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Scott

Check out the designers or do they call themselves architects who build courses along these lines I described, then you may have your answer. As always it is just my opinion and down to the individual to agree or not.

When it comes down to recommendations should we not consider what that advice is based upon (if not explained at the time). As an example in the case of an architect should we not consider his general work as the cornerstone of his opinions on golf. Or would you say one is joining too many dots.

Melvyn

[Scott Warren]

Thanks for the opinions guys. Very much appreciated. Great is of course a term that means different things to different people, but it's interesting to see where some of you have run with it.

Simon H: I agree "great" is overused in all arenas, much the same as "legend" and "hero".

Melvyn: Thanks for clarifying. That post appeared to be directed at Tom D, which would have been slightly confusing...

Kevin P:

What's your definition of "great" ? and what would you include in it ?

One of the reasons I started this thread was to see what others thought because I can't really pin a definition myself.

It spawned from a discussion with some Scots who took exception to me saying a Scottish Top 100 probably went too deep to be meaningful, which led to me wondering at what point do you cut off a list?

Australia has four times the courses that Scotland does, but you couldn't say our list would merit being four times as long. As Andrew said, 50 in Aus starts to include some courses that you couldn't claim to be special. Having only played eight courses in Scotland I wouldn't know how deep the quality runs exactly, other than having a pretty strong feeling that 100 is extreme overkill.

It's hard separating what I enjoy with what I think is great. I love The Addington, but is it great? Maybe the head and heart are too closely linked to try to separate what they each believe.

The "100-mile rule" as Niall notes can get cloudy depending on what else is around the course. I find myself lately when I play a course, thinking how strong the lure would be to drive to play it if it were located where Silloth is. I guess that touches on the thinking that some courses get unreasonably "bigged up" as a result of being near great courses while others in the same situation seem to find themselves overlooked. If you take a course out of its area and remove the other temptations, how does it look standing alone?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Scott

My understanding is that Tom likes to be called Designer not architects and no that part of my post was certainly NOT directed at him

Melvyn

[Mark Pearce]

Why would a top 100 list need to be limited to "great" courses? 

Why doesn't it make sense to have a Top 100 list for a country with 500+ courses?

FWIW whilst there's no denying that 51-100 in a Scottish Top 100 won't be "great" courses, I would be interested to see which courses any particular list featured and there would be some pretty good courses in there.  Perhaps we could have a crack at a Scottish Top 100 and see where we get to.  I think the debate over "great" is a red herring in a discussion over whether a region merits a Top 100.

[Scott Warren]

I agree, all that is needed for a top 100 is for that region to have 101 courses. I just wonder what you achieve and whether the end product is particularly informative or useful.

I guess I just wonder Mark how do you decide Scottish course #100 is better than course #101? At a particular point I think village courses are really much of a muchness, in Aus, England, Scotland... anywhere.

Of course it is also hard to split courses at the top... which leaves me looking at our good friend the Rihcelin Scale and thinking it's a pretty damn good way to class courses.

EDIT - Mark, here is the Scottish Top 100 from www.top100golfcourses.co.uk, which like every other list I have seen on that site just makes me scratch my head and swear profusely. http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/country3.asp?id=3

[Andrew Mitchell]

FWIW whilst there's no denying that 51-100 in a Scottish Top 100 won't be "great" courses, I would be interested to see which courses any particular list featured and there would be some pretty good courses in there.  Perhaps we could have a crack at a Scottish Top 100 and see where we get to.  I think the debate over "great" is a red herring in a discussion over whether a region merits a Top 100.

Mark

There is a Scottish top 100 at http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/country3.asp?id=3.  Without commenting on the merits of the list there are some quality courses in the bottom tiers - of the ones I've played Kilspindie (73); Ayr Bellisle (74); Shiskine (89) and Crail Craighead (92) are all worth a visit.

[Mark Pearce]

Scott,

Of course it's difficult to decide what makes 100 better than 101.  Just as it is between 28 and 29.  One of the great things about these lists is the fact that I don't know anyone who agrees with a single one in its entirety.  If you shouldn't have a Top 100 because you can't decide between 100 and 101 then nowhere should have one and we shouldn't have Top 10s, or 20s or whatever.  There are at least 100 good golf courses in Scotland.  That is, courses well worth playing if you are in the area.  In fact, I suspect there are hundreds (how many of the 500+ would not be worth playing if in the area?  50? Probably not that many).

[Mark Pearce]

Andrew,

Thanks.  That list makes my point perfectly.  First, it's rubbish at the top.  Turnberry first?  TOC 5th?  Kingsbarns?

Then it's rubbish lower down.  Craighead is a better course than many listed above it (Spey Valley 24th?  Please.  Archerfield 32nd?  Above Renaissance?  Craigielaw?) 

But actually, nearly all the courses on the list are worth discussing and I'm sure if we all put our minds to it there'll be a few hidden gems we think should be there instead of a few that are.  Isn't that all such a list needs?

[Sean_A]

The "100-mile rule" as Niall notes can get cloudy depending on what else is around the course. I find myself lately when I play a course, thinking how strong the lure would be to drive to play it if it were located where Silloth is. I guess that touches on the thinking that some courses get unreasonably "bigged up" as a result of being near great courses while others in the same situation seem to find themselves overlooked. If you take a course out of its area and remove the other temptations, how does it look standing alone?

Scott

You can't ever take a course away from its area so why contemplate the thought?  I don't see how a 100 mile rule (or a drive time rule) gets cloudy regardless of the courses nearby.  There could be countless numbers of them.  Limited time to play these courses doesn't imply they aren't great.  For me, I say worth a over-night detour as a recommendation means it is in the conversation of what the great courses are.  BTW, a course can be great and not be recommended in this way as well - it is a 2 way street.  I don't claim it to be definitive definition of greatness, but one which makes you think hard - especially about the funky courses and the sort of standard championship courses.  

To me, a list has to have some significance.  What is the point of listing 100 courses if they aren't all great or in some way very special, special enough to recommend an over-night detour or whatever your criteria may be?  Why talk about the likes of Kilspindie in this way when its likely more accurate to say if in the area and one needs to fill out a trip or is need of convenient golfing sustenance on a day off etc, go play Kilspindie.  I can't imagine folks saying yes, drive out of your and spend the night to play this course at the expense of a game somewhere great.  For me, when a course of this stature is touted as great or top 100, then those concepts have lost any meaningful relationship as to their true worth.  

Ciao    

[Mark Pearce]

What is the point of listing 100 courses if they aren't all great or in some way very special, special enough to recommend an over-night detour or whatever your criteria may be?  Why talk about the likes of Kilspindie in this way when its likely more accurate to say if in the area and one needs to fill out a trip or is need of convenient golfing sustenance on a day off etc, go play Kilspindie.  I can't imagine folks saying yes, drive out of your and spend the night to play this course at the expense of a game somewhere great.  For me, when a course of this stature is touted as great or top 100, then those concepts have lost any meaningful relationship as to their true worth.  

I'm disappointed in you, Sean.  First, why equate "great" and Top 100?  It seems you've bought into the magazines' hardsell.  I thought you were smarter than that!

You ask what's the point of a Top 100 if they aren't all great.  OK, there aren't 100 great courses in GB&I.  So we shouldn't have a Top 100.  What should the number be?  Top 36?  24?  Are you really saying that the decider for the length of the list should be the number of great courses?  In which case, of course, the definition of great becomes crucial.

Then you ask what the point of a list is if they aren't all great.  I'll tell you.  Say I'm playing in Edinburgh in two weeks (I am).  Say a mate and I want to stop over on the way up (we do).  Where should we play?  That's what I'd use a list for (don't all write, we know where we're going).  That's how I'd get to discover a gem like Kilspindie before I discovered GCA.  Remember, these lists aren't there for wing-nuts like us alone.

[Melvyn Morrow]

As we find it impossible to define great when related to golf courses how in hells name can we produce a list of 10 let alone 100 courses that ALL would agree. Two other key elements are bound up in the forming of opinions, they relate to general conditions (course and weather) plus our own mood on the day.

I have played  courses in the past that I enjoyed yet upon a return trip some months later I was greatly disappointed finding it hard how I ever considered it worth a return visit (these were inland courses not links). The opposite also applies finding that on the return visit I really enjoyed the game.

However remember a good course does not guarantee a great day, nor does a great day golfing confirm that course was any better than just good. 

Melvyn


PS Distance has no criteria in deciding if a course is great.

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