[Scott Warren]

In other words, were you setting out to make a list of the best Scottish courses, how deep would you feel it was necessary to go to ensure everything worthy of mention was included?

10? 20? 50? 100?

How many inland courses would get onto such a list?

[Ally Mcintosh]

I've been having a debate recently with some Irishmen about exactly this: "Great inland courses"

Of course it depends on your definition of "great" (and of inland) but I was arguing that Ireland had none; Scotland had only one or two; France, Belgium and Netherlands had a handful; Australia had a handful; England had a couple of handfuls and The States had most of the rest...

As for links courses, I'll leave that up to you...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Scott

Just over 589 great courses in Scotland which comprises of Links and inland courses.

To define great courses is so difficult as we all have different tastes, so I would suggest the answer to your question is all. Even if I do not agree with someone, they still have their right to voice their opinions, so not wanting to offend surely we must say all.

To many variables, but mainly it’s down to the quality and strength of one’s game, even then our tastes may well differ, right down to defining the meaning of great.

The likes and dislikes in Golf, is similar to our choice in women.

It’s impossible to say and the only way to perhaps really judge is to use proportional representation, but the choice is flawed from the start as we are using effectively the lowest form of common denominator .

So I vote all Scottish courses.

Melvyn

[Sean_A]

In other words, were you setting out to make a list of the best Scottish courses, how deep would you feel it was necessary to go to ensure everything worthy of mention was included?

10? 20? 50? 100?

How many inland courses would get onto such a list?

Scott

I am not sure what "worthy" means.  If we (or more accurately me) are talking great courses in Scotland, I would say somewhere between 10 and 20.  If we are talking worthy of being seen by the long distance traveler, perhaps that spread can be doubled or tripled to 25-50 courses.  Much depends on what the golfer is looking for. 

Ciao

[Anthony Gray]

 Cruden Bay

  Anthony

[Phil_the_Author]

Melvyn,

If "ALL" courses in Scotland are great, then none of them truly are... Also, if "defining" great golf courses is as difficult as you suggest, then you've done a monumental job in being able to define "at least 589" of them...  

I also think that I can very easily recognize a wonderful woman regardless of whether she has spectacular looks or not. Of course my wife may take exception top how loudly I recognize her...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Philip

I have not played all but Ernie Payne has including 11 private courses and the new ones each year. MY point as always is how can we honestly make a list if we have not experienced each and every one. Then it’s only the opinion of that individual and not necessary shared by others.

Utilising PR questions only lowers the final result to a questionable level wondering if there is any real substance in the list in the first place, So giving the benefit of the doubt I say all - seems fair, but should we say who is first among equals, why not just play and enjoy the experience or not as the case may be. Let’s also not forget our own disposition on the day may well colour our opinions so will we be able to arrive at a real honest list of our likes? Maybe, maybe not.

Melvyn

[Jud_T]

Scott,

For reference purposes, there were 9 courses rated Doak 8 or better in the Confidential Guide as being worth travelling over 100 miles to see.   

[PCCraig]

I would agree that every course I've played in Scotland (granted my experieince is limited at about 12 courses) has had it's own unique charm, which has always made me want to see more. A list of 50 "great" courses would probably be about right and would do a good job of illustrating the "must see" courses with a few fun regional courses most tourists don't get around to. 100 or more might be overkill IMO. 

[Phil_the_Author]

Melvyn,

I've played Kingsbarns and Lundin Links and walked the Old Course. Kingsbarns and Lundin Links are great courses and Lundin Links is simply a fun local course with a bit of charm. I didn't have to play every course in Scotland to make that determination.

You make a valid point in how it is best to simply just enjoy the course you're playing for what it is, but the topic of this discussion is about identifying the "great" courses of Scotland. Forming a consensus as to which ones they are really isn't that difficult a thing to do.

[Bill_McBride]

How do you define "great?"

[Phil_the_Author]

Bill,

I define great as a course that first is challenging to all on a sliding scalewhere the best players (not talking tour here) have to be at the top of their game to play at par or better. It must have some visula beauty and holes that one waalks away remembering for both their looks and the shots one made on them. It immediately elicits a desire to play it again. The shot values are determined by thinking rather than seeing it squarely infront of you. One must learn this aspect of the course the hard way, by playing it and not through notes ion a yardage book. The challenges the course presents must change based upon tee location and wind direction or both and yet still be of the cerebral type rather than the physical type. Condition is important but not a requirement.

In short, I want to be inspired and only great courses do that for me...

[Emil Weber]

Scott

Just over 589 great courses in Scotland which comprises of Links and inland courses.

To define great courses is so difficult as we all have different tastes, so I would suggest the answer to your question is all. Even if I do not agree with someone, they still have their right to voice their opinions, so not wanting to offend surely we must say all.

To many variables, but mainly it’s down to the quality and strength of one’s game, even then our tastes may well differ, right down to defining the meaning of great.

The likes and dislikes in Golf, is similar to our choice in women.

It’s impossible to say and the only way to perhaps really judge is to use proportional representation, but the choice is flawed from the start as we are using effectively the lowest form of common denominator .

So I vote all Scottish courses.

Melvyn

Will you also say tat about the new Trump course


Scott,

I haven't layed a lot in Scotland, but from your definition of ranking courses and making sure everything worth a mention, then I'd guess about 70 - 100?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Emil

Aahhhh, now you may have a point, but it’s not there yet so I'll stick will my comments.

Philip

As for great, that’s a great word we use it a lot Great Britain but what great is it great in that its bigger that Little Britain or is it Great because its achieved many things, but the Islands have never done anything great as far as I am aware So great mean so many things to each and all of us. Great, Ok

Melvyn

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

I define great as a course that first is challenging to all on a sliding scalewhere the best players (not talking tour here) have to be at the top of their game to play at par or better. It must have some visula beauty and holes that one waalks away remembering for both their looks and the shots one made on them. It immediately elicits a desire to play it again. The shot values are determined by thinking rather than seeing it squarely infront of you. One must learn this aspect of the course the hard way, by playing it and not through notes ion a yardage book. The challenges the course presents must change based upon tee location and wind direction or both and yet still be of the cerebral type rather than the physical type. Condition is important but not a requirement.

In short, I want to be inspired and only great courses do that for me...

That's quite a good definition, but I think "great" implies some sort of bell curve of relative quality where there are poor, fair, good and "great" courses.  Say that 10% are poor and 10% are "great," you might be looking at 20+- "great" courses.

[Niall C]

Scott,

Not sure I can put a definition on great but the terms "challenging", "fun", "plenty to interest", "varied" might be used in attempting to do so. I think I can say that I wouldn't necessarily use the word "championship" although clearly any number of championship courses would be included. Neither would I necessarily judge greatness by the ability to play to ones handicap, so how does "challenging" fit in with that ? Clearly with such a loose understanding of greatness how do you come up with a yardstick to judge a course by ? Well, I'll attempt to judge by using gut-feel. That should give me plenty of latitude  

Let me start with the givens, those courses that whether you love or hate them or think them over rated make the great list through a consensus of opinion, even if that opinion is from those visitors who have only played these courses in Scotland. I am of course talking about the Open rota courses, namely

Muirfield
St Andrews
Carnoustie
Troon
Turnberry

To that list I would also add Prestwick although it might be debatable whether it would make the list if it wasn't for its history.

Those are the courses that visitors (which is the vast majority of this site) automatically think of when they think of Scotland. First time visitors in particular rarely stop and look at what else is in the area before rushing off to play the next Open course. That leaves a host of courses which are either overlooked or over shadowed by their more illustrious neighbour but thats not to say that they might not be considered great in their own right.

For instance next to Turnberry, Troon and Prestwick you've got Prestwick St Nicholas, Western Gailes, Glasgow Gailes, Irvine Bogside, Barassie, Dundonald, Lochgreen and the Darley. Not sure that everyone would agree that all of those courses merit greatness and not sure that I would either but I would have no hesitation in recommending them.

Likewise the list of courses round St Andrews such as New, Jubilee, Eden, Dukes, Kingsbarns, Scotscraig etc.

Those round Carnoustie would include Panmure, Monifieth and Burnside.

I'm sure you get the idea. Then there's the ones up north, Dornoch, Brora, Golspie, Struie you know about. Castle Stuart - would you include that ? You then have a whole list of links between Dornoch and Aberdeen that get by-passed, courses that historically have been too remote to make the grade for the big championships but are still up there. I'm thinking of Nairn (admittedly its had the Walker Cup), Old Moray, Fraserburgh, Peterhead, Murcar and Royal Aberdeen. And before Anthony jumps in, theres Cruden Bay.

With regards to great inland courses you could perm 5 from the following and have yourself a great weeks golf

Duff House Royal (possibly the finest green complexes in Scotland)
Downfield
Elgin
Rosemount, Blairgowrie
Boat of Garten
Cawdor
East Renfrewshire
Kings and Queens at Gleneagles

Even living in this country, I come across unexpected gems like last week played Pitlochry which has one of the best blind holes you could play and some superb short par 4's all together with some wonderful panoramic views. At less than 6,000 yards off the yellows it would probably get dismissed by most on here but hey, its my rules, and its great  

Niall

[Bill_McBride]

Scott,

Not sure I can put a definition on great but the terms "challenging", "fun", "plenty to interest", "varied" might be used in attempting to do so. I think I can say that I wouldn't necessarily use the word "championship" although clearly any number of championship courses would be included. Neither would I necessarily judge greatness by the ability to play to ones handicap, so how does "challenging" fit in with that ? Clearly with such a loose understanding of greatness how do you come up with a yardstick to judge a course by ? Well, I'll attempt to judge by using gut-feel. That should give me plenty of latitude  

Let me start with the givens, those courses that whether you love or hate them or think them over rated make the great list through a consensus of opinion, even if that opinion is from those visitors who have only played these courses in Scotland. I am of course talking about the Open rota courses, namely

Muirfield
St Andrews
Carnoustie
Troon
Turnberry

To that list I would also add Prestwick although it might be debatable whether it would make the list if it wasn't for its history.

Those are the courses that visitors (which is the vast majority of this site) automatically think of when they think of Scotland. First time visitors in particular rarely stop and look at what else is in the area before rushing off to play the next Open course. That leaves a host of courses which are either overlooked or over shadowed by their more illustrious neighbour but thats not to say that they might not be considered great in their own right.

For instance next to Turnberry, Troon and Prestwick you've got Prestwick St Nicholas, Western Gailes, Glasgow Gailes, Irvine Bogside, Barassie, Dundonald, Lochgreen and the Darley. Not sure that everyone would agree that all of those courses merit greatness and not sure that I would either but I would have no hesitation in recommending them.

Likewise the list of courses round St Andrews such as New, Jubilee, Eden, Dukes, Kingsbarns, Scotscraig etc.

Those round Carnoustie would include Panmure, Monifieth and Burnside.

I'm sure you get the idea. Then there's the ones up north, Dornoch, Brora, Golspie, Struie you know about. Castle Stuart - would you include that ? You then have a whole list of links between Dornoch and Aberdeen that get by-passed, courses that historically have been too remote to make the grade for the big championships but are still up there. I'm thinking of Nairn (admittedly its had the Walker Cup), Old Moray, Fraserburgh, Peterhead, Murcar and Royal Aberdeen. And before Anthony jumps in, theres Cruden Bay.

With regards to great inland courses you could perm 5 from the following and have yourself a great weeks golf

Duff House Royal (possibly the finest green complexes in Scotland)
Downfield
Elgin
Rosemount, Blairgowrie
Boat of Garten
Cawdor
East Renfrewshire
Kings and Queens at Gleneagles

Even living in this country, I come across unexpected gems like last week played Pitlochry which has one of the best blind holes you could play and some superb short par 4's all together with some wonderful panoramic views. At less than 6,000 yards off the yellows it would probably get dismissed by most on here but hey, its my rules, and its great  

Niall

Niall, somehow you've overlooked North Berwick and Machrihanish.  It's a daunting task!

[James Boon]

And before Anthony jumps in, theres Cruden Bay.

Too late Niall, see post 4

I'm beginning to wonder if Anthony has hacked the programme so that as well as a "Reply" button he has a "Cruden" button which automatically responds to a thread with...

Cruden Bay

Anthony

 

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

Scott,

Not sure I can put a definition on great but the terms "challenging", "fun", "plenty to interest", "varied" might be used in attempting to do so. I think I can say that I wouldn't necessarily use the word "championship" although clearly any number of championship courses would be included. Neither would I necessarily judge greatness by the ability to play to ones handicap, so how does "challenging" fit in with that ? Clearly with such a loose understanding of greatness how do you come up with a yardstick to judge a course by ? Well, I'll attempt to judge by using gut-feel. That should give me plenty of latitude  

Let me start with the givens, those courses that whether you love or hate them or think them over rated make the great list through a consensus of opinion, even if that opinion is from those visitors who have only played these courses in Scotland. I am of course talking about the Open rota courses, namely

Muirfield
St Andrews
Carnoustie
Troon
Turnberry

To that list I would also add Prestwick although it might be debatable whether it would make the list if it wasn't for its history.

Those are the courses that visitors (which is the vast majority of this site) automatically think of when they think of Scotland. First time visitors in particular rarely stop and look at what else is in the area before rushing off to play the next Open course. That leaves a host of courses which are either overlooked or over shadowed by their more illustrious neighbour but thats not to say that they might not be considered great in their own right.

For instance next to Turnberry, Troon and Prestwick you've got Prestwick St Nicholas, Western Gailes, Glasgow Gailes, Irvine Bogside, Barassie, Dundonald, Lochgreen and the Darley. Not sure that everyone would agree that all of those courses merit greatness and not sure that I would either but I would have no hesitation in recommending them.

Likewise the list of courses round St Andrews such as New, Jubilee, Eden, Dukes, Kingsbarns, Scotscraig etc.

Those round Carnoustie would include Panmure, Monifieth and Burnside.

I'm sure you get the idea. Then there's the ones up north, Dornoch, Brora, Golspie, Struie you know about. Castle Stuart - would you include that ? You then have a whole list of links between Dornoch and Aberdeen that get by-passed, courses that historically have been too remote to make the grade for the big championships but are still up there. I'm thinking of Nairn (admittedly its had the Walker Cup), Old Moray, Fraserburgh, Peterhead, Murcar and Royal Aberdeen. And before Anthony jumps in, theres Cruden Bay.

With regards to great inland courses you could perm 5 from the following and have yourself a great weeks golf

Duff House Royal (possibly the finest green complexes in Scotland)
Downfield
Elgin
Rosemount, Blairgowrie
Boat of Garten
Cawdor
East Renfrewshire
Kings and Queens at Gleneagles

Even living in this country, I come across unexpected gems like last week played Pitlochry which has one of the best blind holes you could play and some superb short par 4's all together with some wonderful panoramic views. At less than 6,000 yards off the yellows it would probably get dismissed by most on here but hey, its my rules, and its great  

Niall

Niall

Just for kicks, what if we say, at the very least to have any shot of being called great, one has to recommend that it is worth while detouring overnight to play if within ~100 miles.  On that basis, how many of the courses you listed make the grade?  Personally, I can't see more than 20 in Scotland and that is generous.  You cranked out loads and didn't mention North Berwick (a shoe in).  

Ciao

[Ulrich Mayring]

I guess it depends where you're coming from. Where I am coming from is a country with maybe 10 great courses. An entire country. So I'd give Scotland at least 30, probably closer to 50 great courses.

Because the alternative - giving Scotland just 20 great courses - would give my own country none. Please don't make me live in a country without great courses

Ulrich

[Jim Hoak]

Of course, it absolutely depends on how you define "great."  By my own standard, I would say that "great" means world-class courses that are clearly recognized by almost all as among the very best in the world.  There would be no more than 25-50 "great" couses in the world by this definition.
If this is the standard, I would only include the 5 courses first mentioned--Muirfield, St. Andrews, Carnoustie, Troon and Turnberry--to which I would add Dornach.
I don't mean to take anything away from near-great courses like Kingsbarns, Western Gailes, North Berwick, etc.  But by a world-class standard, they're not great.

[Andrew Summerell]

I don't know what all of the fuss is about. The answer is obviously 8½.

There you go! Problem solved.

[Sven Nilsen]

I don't know what all of the fuss is about. The answer is obviously 8½.

There you go! Problem solved.

Funny, I was going to say 42.  Now we just need to figure out the question.

[Andrew Summerell]

I don't know what all of the fuss is about. The answer is obviously 8½.

There you go! Problem solved.

Funny, I was going to say 42.  Now we just need to figure out the question.

This is like Golf Course Jeopardy.

Contestant: “’How Many Are Great’ for $1200, thanks.”

Alex Trebek: “This country has 42 great golf courses”

Contestant: “What is Scotland?”

[Bill_McBride]

I guess it depends where you're coming from. Where I am coming from is a country with maybe 10 great courses. An entire country. So I'd give Scotland at least 30, probably closer to 50 great courses.

Because the alternative - giving Scotland just 20 great courses - would give my own country none. Please don't make me live in a country without great courses

Ulrich

What was that course I played in Dusseldorf with the knee high first cut?  Not great!

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